00:00 Patrick Motsch: Good morning, everybody.

00:03 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Morning. Are you?

00:06 Patrick Motsch: I'm fine. And you. Everything good?

00:10 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Good. I'm. I'm at the garage for my car but.

00:15 Patrick Motsch: This is a garage. This looks like a like a big hole. So you have a big car.

00:21 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, well, I'm a Tesla three, so I'm in this customer line here. Yeah.

00:28 Patrick Motsch: That that I make a good job. They know how to serve customers.

00:32 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. No, that's true. There's a nice lunch. And so yeah, yeah.

00:40 Patrick Motsch: Yeah, yeah.

00:40 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: How was Friday?

00:42 Patrick Motsch: It's very, very, very exciting. Nice, warm, wonderful, full of life. You cannot imagine how it. Was really very good. It was really good.

00:55 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yes, I can see here that.

00:57 Patrick Motsch: Yes, it's perfect. It's perfect to go inside and to check how it feels and to take something from them. Those who go, those who go there leave something for us.

01:08 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful to hear. Sounds like it was very uniting.

01:16 Patrick Motsch: Yes, definitely.

01:19 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Mm-hmm.

01:23 Patrick Motsch: We can. We can start with the question.

01:25 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: There we can. Well, let me.

01:29 Patrick Motsch: Let's do like this. I ask you.

01:31 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Peter didn't respond. So let me just.

01:36 Patrick Motsch: But it's also we can also do it on the media directly, it's OK.

01:38 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, it's OK.

01:40 Patrick Motsch: Because we have. That's the good thing that we have this transcript because everybody can always listen what have been discussed or details, this is good.

01:51 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Let me see if I can. Narrow WhatsApp message. Sometimes they can't find them. The link. Thanks for putting the the guides online.

02:34 Patrick Motsch: I hope it's OK, I just realized, oh, we have to do something so.

02:39 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, same. You're just ahead of me.

02:43 Patrick Motsch: OK.

02:46 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Last one for now, huh?

02:49 Patrick Motsch: Yep, not too bad all day.

04:06 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Hey, so Peter cannot join.

04:09 Patrick Motsch: OK. But relevant is on the Marie because you remember we moved it. We moved the date because she invited initially herself. Peter could not. Then we changed.

04:22 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure she will. See what's going out? Well, yeah. So she accepted the meeting and. And she suggested that I'm herself. So let's see. She hasn't yet seen my WhatsApp messages. I sent her the meeting invite and asked her if she was joining. Let's see if I can give her a call. Hey, on the movie. Boy, who is it? Now it is made-up of a new meeting heaven. Yeah, for met. Patrick for the tech vision. Let's talk now. OK, fine. It's on our way.

06:24 Patrick Motsch: Perfect.

06:27 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: See if I can cut off the 1st 7 minutes of this conversation. It's not so interesting for the stakeholder field. I do. I do notice I I keep more quiet now with AI note takers in the last chit chat. Yeah.

06:49 Patrick Motsch: But for me it just in the beginning. I also had this, but now it's good.

06:53 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK, good. Very good. Hey.

07:05 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Hi, good morning. Sorry for being late. I I completely lost track of time.

07:10 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, that's good. That's alright. No problem, Anna Maria. I think at least I have plenty of those anecdotes. So happy you're here, and thanks for picking up the phone. Maybe just to kick it off, Peter's not joining as he shared our e-mail. And he said we don't need him. And I I I do agree so because it's. I think the piece of me are synchron synced enough, so maybe we should just kick it off and then? I'll provide a bit of context and allow Patrick to introduce himself and then we get going. Is that OK?

07:53 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Absolutely. I might have to switch rooms halfway, so just managing your expectations, but. Trying to see if I can prevent that at the moment, yeah.

08:03 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Very good. And so we booked until 35. Is it still OK or?

08:07 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): I I also have a bit of room afterwards, so that's fine.

08:11 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK, let's say 45 minutes. Does that work? Yeah. Good. Wonderful. So context of today is. Peter. As I dunno, as he yet he's already official. Not really, I think. Or is he already officially the? Is he still interim? But we're acting as though he's officially the leader of TSH. And he has asked me, together with Fabian, to support. With the. Definition and roll out of DSH tech vision. And also to support the DSH management team. To yeah. To basically accelerate into, you know, next level of performance and those things are connected. So then we set off to. To to define an approach and basically the first part of that is kick off which will we will have tomorrow and as part of the kickoff, we are interviewing stakeholders. You're the last in the row and the stakeholders were. On well within the Bumt, it's the S&O directors. It's funny. As director at MCO. And it's from and of course Fabian. And it with and. And Edwin and from procurement, we have interviewed Tobias. I think that was all of them, Patrick, right? I think so. And then tomorrow we have a kickoff with Fabian, Peter, Tobias and Edwin. So we have kind of a very lean population where we say based on the feedback and the input from from the I would say both industry reports but also the stakeholder interviews, we will define the scope for the next phase. The next phase is really high level definition of. Of the tech vision and. Yeah. And then and and well, some work looking at more depth in. Cause and effect. Diagramming. And then after that. There's phase two and that will then look more into detailing out Rd. maps, et cetera, et cetera. In the meantime, and and in parallel, we'll do team development on that management team. So that's the context and. And that's also the next step. Next step is tomorrow. The two hour virtual kickoff. So super happy to speak to you and also in this context we've been speaking. Quite a few times recently, which is I find really enjoyable. And so maybe then to. Introduce Patrick. Patrick is an absolute expert when it comes to tech. So yeah, that's why I invited him. Many generously accepted to be part of this engagement. So, Patrick, over to you. Maybe a few sentences to introduce yourself.

11:41 Patrick Motsch: I'd really keep it turned, yes.

11:44 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): I'll listen in, but I'm I'm going to move room. So don't I hope that doesn't distract too much, but I'm listening very attentively. But I know I'll get kicked out in a minute, so please. Apologies for that.

11:57 Patrick Motsch: I will try not to be irritated. Don't worry, it's OK. So you can listen to me. That's good.

12:04 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): I will switch to my headset. Then you I can hear you better.

12:04 Patrick Motsch: Yes, you can give me off the web to summary what you understood. So yes, I'm originally from Geneva, from the German part, from the French part of that thing, from the French part of Switzerland, and now I live in near Zurich area. I live in this part. I come from infrastructure. I met civil engineer initially and then I switched over to the combination. I would say of infrastructure. And it I was in the era of data centers that I could design, build and also I would say realise two data centres. The second one then it was with a Dutch company. It was called interaction at the time and then I could hand over to their internal team. So my job was with the customer who was very demanding and wanted to be very fast. We know him because we sit in a meeting with him. He wanted to have space in Switzerland and I had to plan and organise this to set up his team. In a quite short time, it was one year then to hand over, then finally it was this digital transformation that I I liked very much, but not because of technology for sure. This is interesting, but finally for the people part, I like to support organisations and people to go there to this journey. What I realised is especially also this this companies make making food or making this pharmaceutical things. They were normally in their domain. They were experts. The process business. But then they had to do a change. A teacher transformation. This was new and they were happy to have external to support. And in this role I am now so from infrastructure over IT digital, I'm now arrived, I would say the people now I can speak to people. They understand what I say and I support them on this journey.

13:49 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Very good.

13:51 Patrick Motsch: Thank you.

13:52 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks.

13:54 Patrick Motsch: Now I need to know more about you. When you're ready to speak.

13:57 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Exactly.

13:58 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yes. So my name is Emery. I am director of Adventity Germany since July and have previously always executive roles at various startups, always in the renewable space, with varying roles. Focus very much around the operations or sales and marketing. And I also have had a short stint at Techcom. Companies. So SAS tech companies where we we sold a lot of hardware and that also showed me that when I was in my early 20s, I thought I was illiterate because I didn't. I couldn't write Python or anything, so I actually did also do quite a invested quite heavily in also learning that because I said I can't be illiterate so early on in my life and what not everyone knows. But I'm actually a quite a tech geek so. Always use quite a lot of tools. At the moment, also quite a few agents to to support me privately. In in managing life, because I feel it's it's really relevant and important. Yeah. So very excited to talk to you.

15:14 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Wonderful. And there's so much more I could share, but I guess what I think is definitely one of the most talented leaders I'm currently enjoying working with came into Vodafone from outside last October and. As manager. As a management, I think it was called then or delivery. What was it called? Delivery Germany.

15:40 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Delivery. Yeah, that was. I was and responsible for the installation. Of our entire infrastructure. So we install mainly HPC from the hardware side and as before I had a software company in Europe where I was responsible for installers and optimizing processes. I I could bring a lot of that knowledge together with. My experience at installers. And really bring it together and turn the business around. So I often also come around to do big change processes.

16:14 Patrick Motsch: Yeah, it is a fantastic, great.

16:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: No, and and that is the yeah. What to say it it's it. 'S anomaly really left a dent in in the very positive way, and so.

16:28 Patrick Motsch: OK, cool.

16:30 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Zip codes to. Basically, when Peter switched jobs, which was always let's say in the stars to to to succeed him. So and that's only because obviously that those first the first six months were a success.

16:45 Patrick Motsch: Am I? Am I? My notifications tell me that your family is still in in Munich and you are in Berlin or what is wrong?

16:53 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, exactly. So yeah, life is funny, right? So I moved from one of the rules. We moved to Germany and. We could live everywhere and we love the mountains, so we moved to Munich and now I commute.

17:05 Patrick Motsch: Yeah. OK.

17:07 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): So I commute to to Berlin, but it's it's it's very manageable and also allows me to then in the days that I'm there really be fully focused. So a good balance.

17:16 Patrick Motsch: Absolutely, because family was important for me. That's why my reticent thought so far away. This is not cool.

17:23 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, it.

17:26 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, it has its positives, I guess also.

17:27 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): And it's a lot of stability for the children. You know, they always know Mommy is away. Monday, Tuesday, she's always away. There's a lot of continuity which is important.

17:36 Patrick Motsch: Absolute no.

17:36 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Are you contemplating you're contemplating Berlin still or not so much anymore? And we'll move on, yeah.

17:45 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): We are, we thought about moving actually this summer, but we thought maybe it's a bit too much and so we are moving next summer.

17:52 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK, good. Thanks. And I think one other thing that you should know about, like I said, I think on the at least in my in my eyes, Anna Marie, I think you are one of the most leaning in leaders when it comes to tech.

18:11 Patrick Motsch: OK.

18:11 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: It's no surprise to me that you just said it's new to me, but no surprise to me that you said also, you're working with a a few agents also in the family space to organize your life. And I that's also one of the reasons why I was looking forward to this specific call. Yeah, to get your input into and to get your vision into this. Cool. So. Yeah. You see, there's an AI note taker. It's a GDPR compliance and also let's say I'm paying extra to have it stored on European servers. Is that OK for you on on the to have it? Yeah.

18:48 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, although the the joke, of course, is the European service doesn't really matter because we've seen with the ICJ, even Microsoft said it, but when need be, they will also shut down services. So, but we all feel better because of it, so it's fine.

19:02 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I I know and actually I I must confess it last. Last Friday I had interview with Edwin IT manager and he said actually I thought for policy that it's not allowed to have AI know takers and even when they had a a meeting with Microsoft. The Microsoft people told him better to shut off the note tech. Because they don't trust their own data. Policies anyway, it's a crazy world. Let's get into it. I would say. I will ask you some questions on the. Yeah, and. I'll ask the first few and then Patrick will take over. Let me start by saying how satisfied are you currently with the services and product provided by digital services and hardware?

20:06 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Maybe as a disclaimer for the sake of this interview, and also to provide clarity in the fastest manner possible, I think it is valuable if I'm very much on point and don't speak in too much fluff about it so.

20:24 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Let's do that.

20:26 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): So if you ask how satisfied are you about the services for which DSH is providing? My first thought was which services. So I don't think it's it's super clear. Of course I you know, I understand that they keep the security and the lights on and so forth. There is a part of course with. The with the CRM adjustments I would also count that under the DSH services there I could say I'm. I'm like 83% satisfied and Y 83 and not 90 or 100 because of course there is this bugs in there. And I think if you ask me what would be helpful, I think it would be very helpful if we had. AI agents like running the script 1520 a hundred times, because then you see that it doesn't make sense always that it that that there's still bugs in there. I feel like what I look developing software is hard. Yeah, we we know that and I think that and we also know that you know you say it takes three weeks and in practice. It takes five and I I don't think that that is a problem. That is the reality of how it is. You know, everyone's ambitious and and. But I think what is? What would be good and what I'm missing a bit in the services? Sorry, I'm out ready. Like how satisfied you AM. I'm also like going into what I would my wishes. Is I think it would be very valuable if we could get. I don't know automated updates saying hey, you know we're. At 50 percent, 70%. I know it's also hard. You can't always like state that software is like 50% finished or 70 but still just giving like feedback to the people working on it or or anticipating it is is valuable.

22:21 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK. Thanks. Yeah. Next question was actually let's see where and how can a collaboration between your team and DSA be elevated to the next level. So obviously automated progress updates would help. Is there anything else that might serve of that?

22:41 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, so I'm now basing a bit on my experience from delivery because there I think one of the reasons why we had a very successful transformation is that we were had a very successful roll out of process updates, which came from DSH. And what really worked there, what? Worked there. Well, was that we had. A weekly meeting of one hour and sometimes 90 minutes where we would talk to the developers and give them. And they put together with the process manager and by doing that, you know, ideally you think, oh, the process manager should understand everything. But then it was the nitty gritty details that the developers asked, which the process manager didn't know enough about. And so by having these I call it like collaboration sessions. I think we got much faster to what was exactly needed. So yeah, I think that is a A wish that I would have. Is that there would be if if things are being developed for local teams or international teams, that there is still this like check in moment and then here it is important that the check in moment is with the power users. So not with me but with the actual. User. So what we did for delivery is we identified. Power users and yeah, I think that was what made the collaboration effective and what I'd like to see also for other departments.

24:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Interesting that Edwin said. I think exactly the same, he said at well, obviously he has. You meet at in before on Marie. I don't. Maybe not, no. Edwin is basically the hierarchically the beer of Steven and Stefan Luska Lutz. Sorry, but. In practice, he's more, let's say Peter Speier, because he has a bigger portfolio and he look, he looks at at multiple bus. What he sees one of the key differences that is a key differentiator in other BUS is exactly that the process managers talk directly to developers. So it's identical to what you said, and he says that's where. He feels the BU is currently. Let's say yeah, not serving yourself in the current setup. So that's something that he also pointed to. So interesting points and I'm good to hear that there's actually proof points that that would work or has worked within the BU in a very recent past. So thanks for that.

25:33 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah. And it and it enabled us to have very high speed, I think. And I think in in these times we need speed and I think that's also kind of expected. But this is I think the how you need to realize it. So and in order to enable that you need to have the buy in from the from the other side that they make the time. So my team was very clearly believed. Whatever happens, you always need to drop your pen and talk to the developers, right? And and and that's why we could have that speed. So I think that's very valuable.

26:03 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, very, very, very true and. Of course, you and I also have in in different contexts have exchanged about the central versus the central setup, right? So this is also something that that we can take into account in, in service of the of the of the BU as a whole. So thanks for that. Looking at a tech Fisher now, Anna Marie, how would you define a tech? How would you define a tech vision? Open philosophical question. What needs to be in?

26:38 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): I'm also looking at my notes because I prepared some things, so if I glance away, it's not being rude, but it's because.

26:45 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Sure. Yeah. And sorry for not sending you a a pre e-mail by the way, but.

26:50 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): No, no, this is fine. This is fine so. I think the technology is there to support and to support the business, but also lead the business in the way that and being proactive and helping us make better judgments or better calls or find better opportunities. And I believe that the the vision of DSH should be to to have a scalable model. Where what we roll out is for 70% and I think this is an important part for 70% relevant for all markets and for 30% also. Aligns with the specific country needs. One of my fears is that by trying to make everything relevant for everyone we we produce the worst of every world because we everywhere water down a bit and not take into account the the local exceptionalities and thus build processes or or. Tech. That doesn't fit the the total needs. I would like. The this age to be very innovative in the forefront, so really be a leader in helping us enable the the business to work with agents. I see a long term that the IT department will become much more like an HR department where you have. A vast like a collet like army of supporting role. So I don't see tech as a as a standalone thing, but also also there in transition to like an HR partner because the the tech that is being developed should be like and and here I'm specific like referring to like agents for operations for asset management, for sales. For roll out they are also like kind of a yeah they are. If you see them as semi people, you should also be able to manage them right? Or give them input so. I see that as a as a very. Yeah, important role. That's maybe my vision. And yeah, need that, yeah.

29:04 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: So is it kind of? A. A curator for kind of hybrid talent or something where you have synthetic and human that abilities.

29:16 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, well, there is the vision. If you if you read about like IT departments and trends of the future that the HR departments as we know them now will will really transform and that the IT departments will become the HR departments of the future and. I think we need to quite a soon stage, have a conversation about like who is managing the agents you know and who is like training the agents or giving feedback to the agents or making sure that the agents don't go rogue. Right and. And I think without having this part of the conversation early on, we will develop agents as a natural tendency, but forget the second part. So I I believe that that should be part of the vision.

30:06 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah, probably also. I mean, I'm obviously very passionate about this as well. I'll just see there's it needs to happen in some sort of structured, grounded way that not everyone is just doing whatever and you create this fragmented agent landscape. So Agent Joe or don't go rogue. Yeah. So we can shake hands. Interesting anami. Thanks. Next question. Actually, we have done a bit of thinking around, OK what would do we feel? It would need to include. And I'll show you. What we call. It's a wheel. I mean. Granted, it's it's high level. I mean, that's the intention. And then we make it more, let's say. Applied it in in in working it out further. But just to get your thoughts on how we see this. All the aspect that we feel need to be included. In the tech vision, obviously. I would say it's all in a bath of data and AI, so that means data quality data or all the all the aspects of data. And we also we gave AIA specific. Yeah, place here because we feel it's so prevalent now that we need to. Be sensitive to that. And within that context. And I guess you could say tech also, Patrick more generally but but within that context we feel two important things obviously. A strategy to to execute on obviously leadership at the heart to drive that strategy. The rest of the of the business unit to execute on that from a certain culture. To execute on the strategy and then an operating model that kind of puts that strategy. On the ground and and we we're using. A model based on. A framework coined by the IMD Business School in Lausanne, which then falls apart into go to market engagement, operations and organization. So just wondering, is there anything that you are missing like any, anything big Yep.

32:56 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm missing a thing like on the top of my head. If I if I look at this, I think what I'm missing is is customer and partner ecosystem. You know, engagement is in there, but you know, as often as CP OS we our success depends on the ecosystem orchestration. And so for example, how we work for billing, we work with a third party provider. So you know, also making sure that that is very much in taken into consideration you know. At the moment, most of our money is being made by our roaming partners and so it's not our tech vision, it's actually how we integrate with our partners. So I I think that should be in there and maybe technology and infrastructure. I'm missing a bit the the infrastructure as separate as a whole. You could say you know it's part of everything, but. It's kind of the plumbing that that makes that that makes it. It's solid and so I think what we're seeing at the moment, if you look at our infrastructure set up. We we haven't spoken about, you know, are we? You know, are we? Are we on the right servers? Are we on the right back end? Are we? You know, are API integrations the right one at the moment? I think we're very rigid. For example, with API integrations which which as a consequence have that we sometimes manually copy 1000 work orders, whereas an API plug in could be. Would would fix it within 30 seconds and so I think also. And that is not part of the operating model. It's not part of the culture, it's not part. Maybe you could count it under a strategy, but I think like technology and infrastructure as a whole should also be we separately be considered.

34:57 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. So it's almost like the outer ring also, right, that it's data and AI and tech and infrastructure or it's kind of it's everywhere. Then it's not in the operating model.

35:11 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah. Yeah. And I and I I think really I think that's an absolute blind spot of our organization. Which I haven't come across so much as here is. I think vattenfar tends to be very inward focused, so also on their on their strategy. But we have to speak about the fact that we are outward focused, right. So from the customers or from where we get the money and and and again. So therefore I also find. Customer and partner ecosystem. Such a important driver. So also when we look at like you know, how do we connect with the outside world and it's and I'm not talking about e-mail or teams or conversations. I'm talking about really. The API vision or and you know I think the GTP just brought out these you know MSP agents that now everyone could be like it was to me explained like as the USB port for for chat GTP, right. So what are we doing for us? What does that? Mean you know, how are we using it?

36:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Thanks.

36:17 Patrick Motsch: Perfect.

36:18 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Really enjoying this interview.

36:20 Patrick Motsch: Yes.

36:21 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Now see a side of me which you didn't know yarun.

36:24 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: No, no, I I I had to know that. Well, I suspected it. I suspected it was quite elaborate, so I'm happy that I have an excuse to engage with that side, so thanks. And I know you're very passionate also about this, so. I was wondering also now actually one thing that came to mind listening to you I think is very much is in line with our first was it our. Yeah, our first interview we did with Tobias from procurement. Very talented on strategic procurements and overseeing multiple business units and he also said you know, there's likely once if you have a good which part points to the importance of the partner ecosystem, he said. If you have a good tech vision, basically we can leverage the multi million R&D budgets of our partners because we simply said, hey, this is our techfish and this is where we're going. So make sure. With Vata file name behind you that you research and develop across this line. And so then indirectly you actually access your your multiplying your R&D budget by factor. X right? Obviously, so that also applies to the importance of ECO or of a partner ecosystem. So I just wanted to share that, OK. Thanks. Wonderful. I think I really like to enrich this also based on this interview with Patrick. I think it's very makes a lot of sense. Quickly moving on. Yeah, what initiative? Two more questions. What initiatives? What initiatives, trends and other things are relevant for us to know? That are going to be happening within Germany. That that are relevant, let's say for us to know in this context.

38:17 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Umm. We think about that. I find that we, in comparison to our competitors are being very slow in, in the roll out of new technology. And when I speak about new technology, I often use it. For I often speak about like agents, but it's of course more than agents. But I know that our competitors are much faster in in for example. The management of of ticket systems and of like first and second level operations. They have already nearly all have bots and agents in place and you know, and we're now talking about whether we should insert a chat bot. And I think this shows the and I think there's a very much a bridge between MCO and DSH. That again are basics infrastructure, but also basics. Process is not in order, so we can't even scale fast to to for example roll out this technology because we haven't got, we've haven't done our homework. Properly so, like for example build knowledge bases through which you can pull. So I think that is something that I see. We are being weakened and our competitors are being stronger in. I I see that whereas a lot of people think that Germany is very, I would call them very privacy minded. I think that the the users of our business so and that with that I mean the the customers and also the location partners. They are quite open to tech, so I also don't think that whereas. Maybe the the standard deviation for a German person is to say oh, but they don't want to speak to technology and all they need human interaction. I think that actually that is not very much the case. So by the time we have actually rolled it out, it will be accepted. So I would not be held back by that. We haven't spoken about like payment models and and user experience. Innovation. But I think at the moment there is a lot of like and this is also where DSH is also hardware, right? So.

40:27 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Mm-hmm. Definitely.

40:29 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Where I think like if we look at that part, there is innovation going around us and we haven't even tapped into that or thought about that like you know Google Pay.

40:41 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Where hardware or what do you mean or payments?

40:43 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Well, like I think like in payment systems like how we pay like I think we're like like we're like touching that firstly. But also there there is a tech vision. Related to you know, how do you go with trends there? Yeah, interesting enough. So I don't know if you know, but actually a working student of ours build an AI model where most of our cables are cut. So I think also AI is already being used more in the business than we think. So we actually have a very solid model that we're running in parallel, but just not screaming off the roofs because we think about that. That was developed by the university. The TU University Berlin, where they already like have models predicting. Where what is being cut? And we see that that is also it's a model which we actually used to make business decisions on where we place cameras, so. I think it would be interesting to to look into that.

41:45 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yep, OK. So you already have a use case. You're several use cases within within ESNA Germany, yeah.

41:51 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, I would happily also send you an e-mail with my wishes for use cases because I have very clear use cases.

42:00 Patrick Motsch: Happy for this, yeah.

42:00 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Where I where I would like to see it being implemented and also how I say that that could resolve workload.

42:08 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Well, if you if you could get that to us today, then we can still take it into account for tomorrow's kickoff. And otherwise you can send us any time. I would say very helpful, yeah.

42:19 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): And other innovations that are taking place. From a leadership perspective, I'm very much pushing on copilot, and actually we see now that we have also very few, like copilot power users who now train others in my department, and then they they see it like as their magician with with what they enable a lot. So. Also, where DSH for example says hey, it's not possible to pull this data. A local person that says no, it is because I tried it with copilot. And I build this and this and I I played half an hour around that we we I think. There I I think if you ask like what's happening, I think it would be it's it's very relevant that DSH doesn't think that they are the king and know everything because we see that that doesn't always doesn't hold truth.

43:21 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Hey, Patrick, I think I think something to note for us. I think there is definitely a what would serve the BU is that we kind of elevate our default perspective as. As from to this team, one perspective that we are here to serve the BU and so these kind of these silos and egos, that kind of dissolve in that I know it's sometimes it's a fantasy because we're also humans and egos get triggered but kind of for also. For it it.

43:49 Patrick Motsch: Input was crucial to, as he said, it was absolutely crucial because this is the shift from the mindset. DSH, like technology and it and digital department is, is, is called. I name it like this. And then we bring something to the others. It the other way around people. From the county organization, for example, having contact to the partners and to the customers, they can bring in, they can also bring in better prototypes with their plans. This is really cool now.

44:17 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Now this is cool. And also I'm I'm I'm I'm deeply in the in all the dialogues and the sentiments right. So but if we play this right then yeah I think we it's also it's it's always important to have the BU as a central. Thing, but also very much in this context. OK, good.

44:40 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): It would be very healthy if there be you as a tech vision said. For example, also in our decision making AI 1st and now that that might sound controversial because but it's not. It's not taking away jobs. It is about, you know, have we used the data properly? Have we have we challenged it properly? Have we in in, in discussions or decisions that we take? Have we taken this? We for now, we'll call it still new worldview in 2026, we will stop calling it that.

45:07 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

45:09 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): You know, have we taken this reality into perspective and?

45:12 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I like it, yeah. And what is the quality of our data, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. OK. Wow. Wheezing through time. So I think let's see how strong these digital transformation anchors in your strategy and what's your vision for Germany's role in very strongly. Yeah, OK, I think. I think we. I mean, is there one sentence? Otherwise I hand over to Patrick.

45:37 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, my main concern is that the DSH is actually not fast enough in in delivering on the on on the needs because I see huge needs in assets and operations where I see a lot of repetitive work where I believe that we could make massive improvements I I. See it at the moment, also in in sales in looking for opportunities, I'll provide a list where I think we could really. Very quickly. Get that more? It's also something that from October ONS I will challenge my team on continuously like you know, have you used that? Because we should be digital native.

46:14 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Is that these AI use cases that you alluded to or said this different list?

46:20 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): So this AI use cases where I fear that the DSH will not be fast to deliver on. So if I'm if I'm. If I'm unlucky, it'll take 1 1/2 years for asset management to. To, you know, have an agent in there. Worst case.

46:37 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks, Patrick. Handing over to you and conscious of time. Sorry for taking up so much space.

46:43 Patrick Motsch: It's always my job to be fast, but I have a partner on the other side who's always very fast. That's great. I I try to shape the questions very clear and very short. First on on expression in the topic for collaboration your organization, the county organization together with us. Where do you see the future challenges? The environment, the challenges, things like time to market, human resources, increasing risk outside regulatory things. Where would you say within the next years? We face the biggest challenges.

47:18 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): So a logical one that comes to mind is of course time. You know, and resources and in order to be tech successful, you need to free up resources to be the sparing partner. And I think that is also there is always the. The the healthy. Rubbing right, you know, is there enough time. Are we available enough? So I think there there is a trend which I think can be fixed very easily if there is a leadership by in so to really frame it as. A. As a driver, I think regulatory. No, I would say differently, but in far as a whole is extremely risk averse. So if if you read a regulatory and say, oh, I don't know, for example, after your compliance and you know there should be this like certain software update or we should check something then VAT and file has the tendency to go at 180% and over.

48:20 Patrick Motsch: OK.

48:20 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Over interpret over de risk. So if you say like where is the challenge in the future years? I think it would be if you if you look on the risk apartment side that. Whereas on the one hand, you know, everyone around us is using technology and everyone privately uses chat. GTP, we say, oh, we're not allowed to use AI because I don't know. So I think there is a is a a risk. I think there's also a risk that the technology that we use in House, for example copilot is, is, is quality wise worse than what you use in your normal life. So and as a as a risk. You have people not using it because the the quality is inferior, I mean. Copilot has recently done quite a major update, but I think. That is a risk that I see in the ecosystem that is happening that you know.

49:17 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G) (Unverified): Even though we all embrace change then it feels like we're adopting predated or outdated stuff at watanfow because it took so long for legal

53:56 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Sorry, Betsy. So knowing that you've just been through this exercise of looking at FTE and. Wonder organizational tasks. What? What? What do you feel is your number? You can put to that when you say this leveraging. AI in asset management, for example, where we see quite a few FTS Sara like.

55:27 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): And again, I'm also referring partially back to my former role as head of delivery. We should not change having the ability that power users interact with the developers or lead developers to to really better understand. How we are? What is exactly being meant? Because I also think that. If something is that, sometimes the we always think. The process managers have the solutions, but sometimes I think we should involve much more developers because they know the tech stack better and the tech capabilities. So if you look at that very siloed, you also get a siloed vision. Whereas I think sometimes if you get the lead developers in there, they say hold on. But actually if we would, you know, and then they have this vision, how you could mix and match it. It works much better, which I don't always think that the process manager does have from a skill perspective. What we should do more? As we should interact and think more about our ecosystem and our partners, that is absolutely a thing. That is, I think, lacking. We should think more about the I'm from. I'm going to call it HR aspect of DSH. In the it's it's it's going to be near future if if we want it or not. And we should.

56:47 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: You mean the HR aspects of of of the synthetic human future? Yeah.

56:52 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Agents. Yeah, yeah. And. And we should now, I thought. Yeah, we should think much more about. Yeah. How? How ages? Not only a central part, so to speak, a central department in the top operating model. And don't worry your own. I will not, for now, applaud like changing that operating model. I'm too early here to say that, but it should be much more like this. Eight should be in every line and in every department, so it's not like a silo from the top which trickles down. It's it's. It's a two way St. so to speak. I'm quite visual Patrick, so I see it like you know visually and.

57:32 Patrick Motsch: I like it. I understood you don't like one way St.

57:35 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, that I think that that is something would. We should match.

57:47 Patrick Motsch: Yes. What about I want to. I know time but.

57:49 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

57:50 Patrick Motsch: Things that change in the future and when we change, maybe we change change regulations might change. Stability of countries might change and all these things can you give us some inputs also for the strategy where we should be careful.

58:03 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Ah, very good question. Where should be. Be careful bearing all the uncertainties around us. Although logically you want to say regulation, I think that will be too slow in Germany. So before that, is actually through Parliament and everything, where at least 18 months down the line. So I I wouldn't be too concerned about that for now. I think where we should be concerned is the and I need to close the door for this. This better better close the door. For this is is the power of workers councils. We don't have one in in Germany yet, but we do have them in other countries. And apparently the overarching workers councils for Vattenfall have adapted a policy where they say that no jobs will be lost due to AI probably set up by someone who didn't understand the future. So I would really recommend that you you take that into consideration in how you frame that, because it could otherwise be that you're. Higher vision gets like slashed because of this central policy that I would, I would dive into that like, you know what, you use the right words. Yeah, another part I don't even talk about that. Yes, in the in the future landscape of E mobility and especially Germany, there will be mergers and acquisitions. And merger acquisitions also means tech stack means back end means stitching stuff together. Which you don't want. And I don't think we have any vision on that. I think it's always a bit of an insult and we'll see what happens. But I think if you ask what could be destabilizing in our infrastructure setup or there I don't know if we do. If we do a a big merger or we buy a big party. That I think. Even though we don't speak about it, I think immobility is always on the list of being sold. Also, they're thinking, you know, if you, if you look at your tech stack and also the proprietary value, I've done a lot of selling of companies or preparing them for for being sold. Sometimes it's smarter to like. How do you write up your tech if you if there is a position, and I think this is something that you should discuss in a very small round yarun and and Patrick. It was with perhaps people's like how do we document? How do we make sure that should the DD moment happen that we are prepared and because I've also been once at a company where then the IT department? I don't know. Scrambled for two months, day and night to to write everything properly because it was never written up. And then they couldn't prove. And actually the value of the company was mostly in the IT.

01:00:59 Patrick Motsch: Exact perfect. I take 2 steps and we have perfect perfect one is the one that decided documentation acquisition and the other one is doing some documentation of the AI. So sometimes help to understand application to to shape it. Better to make it better and all these things. With this I like great point. So we are true also in time.

01:01:20 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Thank you very much.

01:01:23 Patrick Motsch: Yes. Anything else that we missed, we have more questions. Thank you.

01:01:27 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): No, I am going to provide my wish list of AI agents which I believe are very beneficial for the market. I will go a bit crazy and spend. I don't know another 10 minutes thinking about everything I could add and then I will break it down to the the five priorities where I believe they have the most impact, but I just do want to show that I think there is a vast world of opportunity out. There and when we're not using any of it.

01:01:52 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: No. And please also note, if you're doing that from Abu perspective for a Germany perspective, right, I think the first perspective would be, I mean they're both helpful I guess, but. Yeah.

01:02:07 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): I will flag by the BU as a whole. Can I think so? All the options that that I'm seeing are BU as a whole, right? So it's how we do sales, how we do operations, how we do asset management, how we do billing.

01:02:18 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

01:02:18 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): But I I can't always speak for my other colleagues, and maybe because also my my former role, I'm a bit hesitant to to, so to speak, dancer on the Dutch territory. Or that and say, oh, they should also use this though.

01:02:31 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I just am really thankful so much also for the extra time and. Yeah. Obviously, we'll keep you posted later. What's next? But I'm sure. Oh yeah. We will pull you in throughout the next phase of this program. Thank you very much.

01:02:53 de Jong Annemarie (SB-G): Thank you very much and take care. Bye bye.

01:02:55 Patrick Motsch: Thank you.