wiki/mandates/vattenfall/110 Interviews/114 Interview Fabian - Head E-Mobility/02 transscript.txt

00:00 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): It looked like. It looked like I was already in the future.

00:03 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Amazing. It's so fast. Hard to keep up.

00:08 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:09 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: But you are Peter, right? You are not some hologram.

00:13 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): You never know. You never know. I don't tell.

00:15 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: You never know when year on, you know we're not that advanced right now. And so this is something we need to work on.

00:21 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, I I recently.

00:25 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): So my intention my intention is to get paid without anybody noticing that I'm not there.

00:29 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's work on that.

00:32 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: That's not real innovation. That's already happening. For a couple of generations anyway. Good to good to be here with all of you, yeah. Peter, will you kick us off?

00:47 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah. So yeah, we could do it.

00:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Maybe explain to Fabian what we're doing here.

00:53 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah. So. Officially, I'm still acting. Let's see.

01:00 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, be careful.

01:01 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah, be careful.

01:03 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, Peter, it's. Never been sure right, it's.

01:07 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: So Fabio's sitting back a cup of coffee.

01:08 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah, yeah. So no, no, so I think. I think we can. We don't need to explain the what we're doing, but I think we can share that we've started with the interviews. We've had an interview with Tobias last week was the first one very, very interesting. We talked to funny Elite and we will also speak to Anna Marie to to Jet Ska later today. And then, of course, Anna, Marie and Henrik as well.

01:39 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah.

01:42 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Very interesting so far. I have the impression that it's already generating valuable input.

01:46 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Cool.

01:48 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): And it's also very interesting for me and probably also for you guys to observe the the difference in kind of answers, right? It's it's completely different. Every goal is different, not not bad or good, but it's interesting. And yeah, I also feel like. It's the right thing for doing so, it's yeah. And then we concluded, let's also interview Fabian, of course. Some things we know but but but still would also be strange to not. So we now take you from the other perspective, right?

02:21 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yep. Yep, Yep. Yep, Yep.

02:24 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): We interview you as a stakeholder. And. And let's see what that brings, right. So, but I would. I would say so far, so good, and I'll be preparing for the for the next phase. So the kickoff and. And from the the next Facebook program.

02:39 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, great. Sounds really good. And could I may I quickly check on? You said it's quite different inputs and you received so far. Is it different in terms of flight level or is it different in terms of opinion so so. Conflicting opinions?

02:56 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): No, I would not say conflicting opinions.

03:00 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Mm-hmm.

03:01 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Everybody looks at it from a different perspective and.

03:05 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: OK, OK. Cool.

03:08 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): And then we hand off to you for the introduction.

03:12 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah. Great. Yeah. Or maybe just to finish around because this is a kind of a special edition in in a way. And then we get to the to the questions, but maybe Patrick, maybe you and me also we chip in go give our just high level impressions on how the, how the process going, would you would you like to to chip in, is that OK?

03:31 Patrick Motsch: For sure you addressed Fabian Ford. What was different? Yes, I also agreed. Was not that it's different opinions it, but it was also that they addressed challenging points. To some other process, other people, and they also addressed it on different flight levels, for example. Funny that we also had going very deep or I would say aliat to stay on a certain level. We had. We had. We had also inputs in certain areas which could be critical or where they say challenges for the future, for example the environment. Changing what environment changing not the same as it did before. It's it's getting very flexible, very fast changing. So we have. We have to think about this also. The stations that we have, if we make 10 times more or 20 times more of these, what it is could mean between the lines. What the people say, so this is the kind of impression I had. So for me it was for two things valuable. It's the first time I have to do with waterfall. I did not know you all before, so. I see these different people with a different opinion, but I can. Fully agree what Peter said. I did not hear anything about conflicting things that we would have a fundamental setup thing or somebody does that does not agree with some setting of our strategic perspective, decided not here.

04:48 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. OK. OK.

04:48 Patrick Motsch: Give back to your share.

04:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah, maybe just to finish that round. I would say that's too. That's why I agree with what's being said. I would add to that. I mean, there are different levels of tax savviness, I would say, yeah. So Alit is less tax heavy than funny, which which is not new, but it just comes out.

05:14 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, absolutely.

05:14 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Funny has been leading digital services. Alit has been more into the concessions and and asset management and all of that. So it's clear. So there are different perspectives which which makes it so the diversity enriches it. I find right? So. So it's it's it's, if anything it's it's it's good to have these different perspectives and what they all share in common is until now is that it's really good initiative really good to have this now.

05:48 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:48 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Some people give me the impression it would have been also good even. Earlier, let's say. But there's there's no one saying like, can you please explain to me why we're doing? And yeah, and and I'm also. I also think my personal also Peter, is that it it helps you to launch yourself as an establish yourself as a leader as well in this space. So yeah, all all positive, I think. Cool. All right, now let's get down to business. No, I'm kidding. We have a few questions Fabian and I think Peter also here again. Please chime in as usual. I think I will kick it off and then hand over at some point to to, to Patrick. You OK? You already mentioned, of course, a few things. When we had the the intake, but yeah, for completion sake and also. You know, there's the power of repetition. I would say I would still like to ask you again this question where yeah, how do you see the current? Performance of DSH in the in in the in. Maybe you had it performing so in terms of products and services and and collaboration? In a few sentences.

07:21 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Have pure reflections. I think the SH is currently not taking. Their role DSH should have. So my belief is that we are an infrastructure company. That is heavily. Dependent. On tech capabilities and tech, both in terms of hardware and software. And DSH is not. Taking this role, and I think and there is in the organization, is desperately. Waiting for a department taking elite. And so it's I think this this organization would welcome a much stronger role and much more confidence in in DSH. I feel there is a lot of frustration in the organization and from the past, also from connected to past leadership. So where there was always when, when there was a demand or some suggestions from the local operations, the the default answer was no, it's not possible. And yeah, we have. We have other stuff to work on, compliance, security. Things that are hidden. So not not creating a benefit for the organization. And we were also not strong in showcasing lighthouses. And so we're showing our strength. Why I'm mentioning this, I think we are not too bad when it comes to our I at least IT infrastructure. Yeah. So and the platform was was assessed and the results are not not so bad. I think we have leading functionalities, especially in the urban domain. And we are not actively showcasing this to the organization. Making people proud of that. Yeah. So this is my, my overall view, yeah. So DSH is underperforming and not taking the role they should have. And maybe at last point. I believe we have good people in DSH. So looking at the hardware engineers for example, and they are outstandingly good. For the product owners, on the software side, it's a bit more hidden. For me, I'm not having so much direct contact with them, but also there I think we have a few really great talents. So something to build on. Yeah.

10:06 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): And I can tell you that's the same. So I have a bit of a strange role in this interview, but I can confirm.

10:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Which part can you confirm?

10:17 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): But also in digital area we have unique competences when it comes to the people. So I'm not saying every PO product owner is the best product owner in the world. That's not what I'm saying. I think we have quite a unique skill set when it comes to the combination of POS with a lot of experience and developers with a lot of experience. So I would say hi, try to find developers with 10 plus years of ability experience. It's not that many and we have and we have maybe 30 of them.

10:44 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Right, right.

10:46 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Maybe maybe two more aspects.

10:48 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Sure.

10:49 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Talking about stakeholder management and DSH is the function in our organization working closely with procurement in IT, and I see definitely. Improvement potential. At least towards procurement. So I think in procurement we have very talented people and to be SN team they are talented. They are willing to support and they are buying into the joint agenda and our organization frustrated them a few times in the past and there's also kind of we and they thinking, yeah, so it's it feels like we are the ones that need to and that need to. Change it's it's not UN procurement. I think there there is the willingness looking at someone like like China or to be us. So they're all willing to to, to contribute. So this is something we we should improve. When it comes to it. I also see a great willingness to to cooperate, and they also I'm personally having good contact with. And they are. They are also eager to exploit further collaboration areas. And so like AI, for example. Yeah. So E mobility has a nice size. You can experiment. You can showcase certain things. So I think this can be improved. I think the collaboration with it is better. And then towards procurement. However, I think we need to bring it to a bit more strategic level. And so I think it's it's very operational, it's we're talking about use cases and and and backlogs. But I think there is limited discussion alignment around long term vision and strateg. So this should be improved. Umm.

12:41 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks.

12:42 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah.

12:43 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): And I may ask one thing, so it may be a process thing because I'm a bit struggling with my role here. I can.

12:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, you want to flip rules.

12:52 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): I find it difficult to yeah, because I actually want to chip in, but I'm a bit so open question you. Know this is the position with me.

13:00 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Patrick, what? Yeah.

13:03 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): I can also easily chip in, but it's what you like.

13:04 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, it's an interesting one. I I have been reflecting on it. Do you have a personal preference? And before.

13:16 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Phrases on an example. Then let's let's base it on the example. So Fabio mentions the platform is our our IT systems in general. Not that bad, right? And I agree. So and what I wanted to chip in is basically what I'm seeing is that we're quite good in developing things. In in the back end itself, but those were quite weak when it comes to the user experience. So I think we have the back bonus and then let's then reconnect to the question again. But the backbone is really good. That's what I'm firmly believing. But if you ask a user, he will say very difficult to use. And this is one of the challenges that I'm seeing and that we can easily change it this, but this is what I what is. I think one of the root causes for the for the fact that people are not happy with the usage.

14:06 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah.

14:06 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks.

14:09 Patrick Motsch: I took a point.

14:10 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): No.

14:13 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: So I've I've. I've. I've yeah. Sorry.

14:19 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: So I think looking at DSHS so far, we. Tried to execute on overwhelming demands from SMO, uncoordinated demands and that was one thing and on its own executed on compliance and security topics. There is one missing element I know from other companies. I believe DSH needs to have an own tech vision and also needs to develop. Certain things towards. So quick explanation what I'm meaning. The the real tech capabilities are in DSH, so there is no one in the wider organization and that can say OK, we need to further modularize our platform, for example. All we need to bring certain things to cloud or we need to merge. IaaS and Android. Development platforms. So I think. The the development steering needs to be a combination of reacting to to demands and this is important to to satisfy our internal customers but also proactively develop things in the in the deeper tech infrastructure. So this needs to be balanced out.

15:51 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, which is in a way, it's. What you're saying is internal customers are important and industry trends, et cetera as well. So it's kind of different input and what I'm also hearing is also the short game and the long game at the same time.

16:12 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Exactly. Exactly. And don't. Don't assume that the operational people in the SNL's can provide the relevant input for the tech development.

16:22 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

16:22 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: So they are interested in in. Yeah, we need a new button here and there. Yeah. So just a bit, et cetera.

16:27 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: So there's A and what I'm what I'm concluding is that in, in your perspective, there's an over emphasis on or giving, giving giving too much of our attention to short term internal stakeholder or internal customer needs rather than short term and long term internal customer short term and. Long term external trends kind of so.

16:53 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So, so yeah.

16:56 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: That ballot is not really covered, let's say.

16:57 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: I think it's it's, it's it's about balancing this out. So these different dimensions and taking conscious decisions about it, explaining it in in a simple way that people can understand it. So there is the perception of people and this is the image of the SH and or in our company that things are taking too long and too costly. Nothing is moving, demands are being. Ignore it so so I think. Yeah, this this is what I'm saying around standing of these agents. So DSH needs to be much, much much stronger in, in, in in leading certain discussions. So maybe last last point, my experience is from the customers unit where there was a strong DSH leader in that in that sense, or only digital and.

17:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: What's his name?

17:52 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Like like Peter's role. It's all Gar famous, all garb, exactly. But Holger's facilitating alignment rounds. And he's saying this is our our road map. And guys he. So he is a bit having this attitude. You do not have any clue. I explain you the world. Yeah, this is where we need to develop towards and then people can can also contribute a bit, but in the end. He's developing his vision. And he's he's also very active in, in. And also very self confident in saying with the best platform in the world. So it's best in class. It beats every benchmark. And so this is totally different here. And so DSH is a bit the. In, in a kind of defensive position. Always explain. Yeah, we have limited budgets. We also need to take care of security and compliance. It's so much work and it takes long. Yeah. And we cannot react to the demands. Assessed. So it's it's. Yeah, it's not inspiring.

18:53 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Sure. No, no. In my. In my opinion, that's also to do with the. This is consistently been the the narrative from from Peter's predecessor, right. So that then then that's what you get kind of. That's what you send out. That's what you get there. Yeah. So. So I think a good so it's. A part of that is is a leadership change. We can now capitalize on on that. And and now also we need to. Fortify that with with this initiative, what we're doing now? Yeah. And and and more K cool.

19:34 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): What is Fabian? What is Fabian, apart from the lack of a vision from DSH? Another reason for this overloading demands through DSH.

19:45 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So, so I think obviously it is. This is grounded in the business strategy, so. Broad focus and this will change with the customer invest exit. And secondly. The Unharmonised demands of our organization. And the let's face reality. The lack of process management so so, so. Yeah, it needs a strong process management in order to coordinate demands. Also structuring them in a meaningful way if you if you simply dump the operational view to DSH, this will not work. And so I believe that the the new structure. Consolidating demands via process management and putting them in a meaningful way to DSH. Is it the right one? But there's still a way to go, and so in process management is not ready yet. So this as you know, it's a significant improvement area.

20:54 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah. For Patrick's context, there is has recently the manager has been replaced and I was in that workshop yesterday. And the day before with amongst others, this new manager and I, I've I'm confident that we will see positive change. But yeah, like you said, it's not there now. And then, of course, Neil's will need a a bit of time to to get going. Maybe back to the question, Peter, from you, I would say let's follow the energy and if if at the end of this. Chat we feel actually it makes sense to have another stakeholder interview specifically with you. Then let's do that. But let's, I would say just jump in as yourself and don't feel constrained by. Some something that we we decided would be wise, yeah. Cool. Maybe last well, I have two, two more, Patrick. I don't know. Let's see. Let's see how far we get, because that was quite an elaborate answer. We covered already quite a few things.

21:55 Patrick Motsch: Yes, I think the next one you can try. Skip, you already have it.

21:59 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I think so, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think also the cross BU collaboration, OK, yeah. I'll show you. I'll show you the the steering wheel we have. Yeah, it may sound like a bit like Patrick and I have a telepathic connection, but actually we're just looking at the same Google documents so. Just transparency. So this is kind of, you know, we like to put things in models. And. At a very high level. We have some improvements already on this but. These are kind of the chunks that we feel need to be covered in this tech vision.

22:49 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Mm.

22:49 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: So obviously there's a leadership piece at the heart of this driving this.

22:54 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Mm-hmm.

22:55 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: A large part of it translates into strategy that translates also into culture, enabling that strategy. And then execution of strategy which you could loosely translate as operating model, which stands for us into different categories as well. The operating model piece specifically has been. Let's say, inspired by the IMD. Orchestra model that we shared also in the proposal with you and all of this is happening within the bath of data and AI. Data quality, AI technology and emergence, and all of that, and a funny habit. Interesting suggestion that those arrows going outside should actually be going inside because of the impact of data and AI. So fairpoint. So we will inverse those arrows, but just asking you because we we will bring the iterated version of this also to the kickoff. Just asking. You are you. How does this look? And are you missing anything? Yeah, any crucial parts granted that this is kind of meta level, right, so.

24:11 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. No, I think it's a logical structure.

24:14 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Good. OK.

24:15 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: We've also talked about all these elements before. Yeah, no.

24:19 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK. Excellent. So that's clear. And that's good because we like at a high level, we like to keep it simple, because if you're already at a high level start to stumble then.

24:32 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Maybe only one one point.

24:35 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

24:39 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: I'm thinking about. Fundamental guidelines. So what I'm what am I talking about? Maybe it's a subpoena to any of these categories. I'm talking about. Fundamental guideline needs to be harmonization, cross country harmonization. Let's take the hardware side for example. The DNA of DSH needs to be. To say. We need one. Internationally harmonized hardware portfolio. So this is and this is the same for digital. Yeah, we do not develop any kind of functionalities for one country only. It's it's always looking at serving all three markets and potentially more, yeah. Another fundamental belief or guideline could be. Scalability. So this business unit is built for scale. Everything we do needs to serve scale. Another one could be. We need a flexible platform in a highly dynamic market. We we need to keep flexibility. We need to be flexible for any kind of constellations in the future and so potentially mobility will at a certain point in time, be subject to M&A. So going into the joint venture and being sold whatever you know. So maybe it's also good to list I. Don't know. It's maybe a handful of of of guidelines or fundamental beliefs that can serve the organization to as kind of guiding star. Also checkpoints. So are we on the right track?

26:24 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

26:25 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: It's maybe a sub point of strategy, I don't know.

26:30 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. No, no. Let's see how we integrate it. But it should be. It should be an integral part of this for sure, yeah. Yeah, guiding guidelines or guiding principles, or let's see. Let's see how we principles or let's see how we call them because they're not just guidelines. They are like corner stones in a way like principles. Principles. Yeah.

26:55 Patrick Motsch: It's it's principles. It's acting principles or steering principles. It's this level.

27:01 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's call them principals for now.

27:05 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah.

27:05 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK. Thanks great. Yeah, in your view. Which industry trends or internal initiatives do you see as most relevant to shaping the bus future tech vision?

27:25 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, so so full focus on button find best.

27:30 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

27:33 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Then what I would like to highlight is. I see a trend towards. Or what? What what will be of utmost importance for us is everything around smart charging. So smart charging and also vehicle to grid. In the longer, in the long run. And everything around pricing, flexible pricing, dynamic pricing. These are the two areas I see a lot of value connected to. And when it comes to the platform setup, I would see the need for modularization. In order to keep flexibility. And to revisit the need. Or to reduce development and move more towards configuration. Also something Peter and I discussed recently. Maybe not so much for the Chargepoint management system, but looking at CRM, for example. We, we we still develop quite a lot and developing something always comes with the burden of maintaining it afterwards and this will drive cost significantly. So I think we standardization should be our goal. Umm. And moving to the hardware side. We need to acknowledge that there is a lot of development in the market, so it's incredible. Yesterday met ABB and they are now introducing a new product line. So we definitely need to stay on top of that.

29:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Mm-hmm.

29:15 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: These developments also here I see the trend towards modularization so. Flexible site setups. So where we have dispenser solutions instead of integrated cabinets for example. Smoothly interacting with battery solutions, for example. So I think this also here flexibility is key. And so because this industry is rapidly developing. The electric vehicle uptake in our markets is not fully predictable. The attractiveness of certain sites is not fully predictable, so we need to be flexible to constantly adapt to the demands. Whatever it concreting means. But this is important.

30:05 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

30:05 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: And then one last aspect I would like to highlight is. We see that hardware producers have different strategies when it comes to the data management. They are. They are believing or they are trying to. Keep the data ownership. Having sophisticated portal solutions. That's also pretty kind of. Complete service package. Whereas whereas others, like our Chinese supplier exchange and they are providing more plain hardware. Yeah. And I think we need to have a clear understanding about what kind of strategy do we want because I believe it's not meaningful. To work with both because if if we if we build a sophisticated data management and our supplier does, then we have redundancies in in the whole value chain, we are losing margin. Yeah. So it's it's driving cost. So means either we have the belief we are the ones holding all the data, then we can use cheap hotware, or we take down our initial data management and rely more on partners. But we should be decided on that. And I I feel there is no view in DSH about these kind of things.

31:38 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. What comes to mind with me also is that I don't know if that's within procurement, but there's a strong contract management side to this as well, of course. I mean, I don't know, but like for example a modular setup of of a site has a has a contract management aspect. Data as a contract management side to it.

32:09 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Absolutely.

32:11 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I don't know, just came up.

32:13 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, it has. Of course, it's. And there you can see that it's also meaningful to integrate. The digital and hardware capabilities in one department because. It's so for example, if we would choose strategy relying on the portal solutions or provider strategic applications, right? And so we're becoming dependent on on certain suppliers like ABB. So means this needs to be reflected in our procurement strategy. And so if if going this path and we should have strong at least second supplier enabling us to to shift over if needed. And so by a dependency is is critical and yeah, so there is definitely a. Connection to the contract.

33:04 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, but are they within procurement? The contract management, or within DSH or somewhere else.

33:10 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: No, it's it's not. The contract responsibility is with DSH, but procurement is supporting us in all these things.

33:19 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: From my logic, that's where you can win a lot of money or lose a lot of money.

33:24 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

33:26 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Right, like we know.

33:27 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah.

33:28 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): It's a bit connected to your earlier statement, Fabian. Nobody else than DSH can bring some of these things into the organization like like Elite. What kind of selection do we need to make when it comes to Huntsville?

33:43 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: 2nd.

33:43 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): We we feed. And we feed the business. It's not the other way around, except for the. You could say the urban tenders where there's firm requirements on hardware. Otherwise, DSH need to feed the organization and and otherwise nobody will do it and we will just buy something.

34:01 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't want the SNL's to dictate what kind of type of hardware we are using, because then in the end it will result in in local sub optimization. And secondly, it will be much more based on on on, on high level beliefs or what you exper.

34:21 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Personal yeah. Personal beliefs, yeah.

34:24 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: As yeah. Personal beliefs. And so we know one manager. Who didn't like ABB? And then so. So this is to to validate then. Right, it's. Yeah, and the the selection of hardware is key. So it's it's what are what we are showing towards our customer.

34:41 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Last question from my side, maybe brief answer and then switching to Patrick. Time is flying in this interview. How strong is digital in transformation? In the view strategy and what's your vision for this? For his role in driving growth so.

35:05 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, I think the the looking at where we stand right now. Digital transformation is not driving force in our in our organization. So our organization. Is traditionally. Based on growth steering. We have moved the pure growth and steering more towards profitable growth and steering. And digital acted as an internal supplier, so delivering on the needs.

35:44 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

35:47 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, in the future, I believe. It needs to be much more balanced.

35:53 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

35:56 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: So we we should understand the connection much better for in in which use cases can we create a real USP, a real competitive advantage? So, for example, by applying smart charging Deco to grid capabilities. So but it it means the organization the White Organization needs to have a clear understanding. About. Our capabilities and where we wanna go in terms of tech capabilities, then we can steer commercially towards.

36:32 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK. Thanks, that's big.

36:38 Patrick Motsch: Thank you. Yes, I'm taking the questions about challenges and opportunities. I will be interesting also for the future and for this environment changing fast and unexpectedly in the future. So what do you see as the biggest challenges and opportunities for VOE mobility in the coming years? So things like financial, human resources.

36:59 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So the the, the, the biggest challenge we are we're facing is an under utilization of assets.

37:09 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Hmm.

37:10 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Not so. What this industry not only we are currently experiencing is there's. There is an abundancy of charging infrastructure available in our markets and there are two less EVs on the on the streets means. All stations are being used 5% of time, something like that. Means there is 95% underutilisation. And this is of course commercially. It's very painful. And we are especially exposed to that. As we focused on the so-called destination segment in the destination segment is very welcome. A bit later comes so this destination segment is attractive in a more mature market and we are there is a mass market penetration of EV's and looking at a market like like Germany, you can see that it's more premium cars on the on the streets. So EV. And premium cars charge either at home, at work or on route. But not not in the supermarket. This means we need to this segment will take up as soon as cheap EVs are available, and also the secondary market is kicking in. We are not there yet. And this is this is a major challenge. Another challenge is. It's so more looking at competition. There was a kind of bubble and and very high valuation of these kind of businesses in the past leading to capital flowing into this this business. Means there is. It's a very fragmented market with with significant competition. Needing to. Kind of warn price and also connected to the utilization. Yeah. It's so many competitors have the problem of underutilized assets. It's meaningful to it's also rational to go down to the marginal cost level. There will be. Significant decline in margins. Yeah. Leading to unprofitability for all the players in the field. So means and this is then. Driving the implication for the organization, what we will see is and we are already in a kind of phase of consolidation. Yeah, in the face of consolidation will lead to two things. First, all the competitors need to work on internal efficiency. Internal efficiency can be achieved by optimization. So like process management where we are discussing but also. Synergies, in our case, International synergies are key and I believe that after or in this phase. Consolidation only. The the efficient players will survive so and then in the long run it will lead to fewer players, larger players in the market with an efficient setup. That can then. This will then lead to a balance in. It it will lead to margins that are sustainable. For the average player, and so in the end it will lead to a decent profitability in the market, but this will take years. So as I'm seeing it based on studies. This will at least take the upcoming three to four years.

41:09 Patrick Motsch: Follow up question on this last topic that you addressed the Industrial Center synergies. Who do you think should be in the lead for this? The strategic point.

41:19 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Excuse me, Patrick. I didn't get it.

41:22 Patrick Motsch: Which will be in the lead to to look forward or to analyze industrial synergies. It is consolidation phase.

41:32 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, I think so. It has different dimensions, right? It's of course it has stakeholder considerations like should we merge our company with another player going into joint venture and selling whatever. Yeah, so this, but I think looking more concretely at DSHI, see your responsibility. In. Looking out for. Strategic moves. So for example, of course the biobuild question is it right to to self develop our CPMS or is it better to move to a white labour platform? If if developing an own CPMS, should we consider? Offering this as a white label. Solutions to others, yeah. So. What kind of? What kind of modules differentiate us from the market and what kind of modules? Are kind of hygiene. We should run in the most efficient way. So these I think these are the questions ESH needs to answer.

42:44 Patrick Motsch: Thank you. Great. So in addition, what other points you see challenges or SuccessFactors that I would take vision that we just want to raise now will be successful. What other points do you see that we should consider?

42:58 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So so kind of ingredients for the tech vision.

43:01 Patrick Motsch: Yep.

43:03 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So it would be biobuild. It would be. The connected to this, the modularisation. Development versus configuration. And it would be everything around data management in AI.

43:30 Patrick Motsch: But this brings us to the next question. How do you see data analytics and automation? Supporting decision making and efficiency in the future.

43:44 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So. Key I think we need to improve in, in, in data quality first. And we need to make sure that data is available for AI. So honestly, I'm not sure where we stand here. Yeah. So I don't know how good we are data management, but I know the data quality is an issue. Availability could be better than I think, I don't know. But for sure, AI will play a major role in the future in, in, in. So in everything, right? It's so think of. Pricing. Yeah. So I believe in, in dynamic pricing in the future and this is a classical case where we could adopt AI. Flexibly adjusting pricing according to different. Data considerations. Yeah. And and maybe one one last last point. Also here I think we need to think about simplification. It's. I'm not sure if our data classification is fully correct and so so. That's maybe connected to data quality, yeah. So it's sometimes it's also here we might need to to work on on a clear definition of data on simplification of data. I feel it's it's also a bit mixed and not structured enough.

45:30 Patrick Motsch: What do you mean that bit simplification? The simplification of access or the simplification of where it's stored? Or simplification of the structure of data. Structure good.

45:42 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: So so it's it's maybe not the best example, but maybe one one thing where I can showcase what I mean. We're measuring the the, the, the transactional Net Promoter score and this is being measured. And in the end we we are showing. The scores for our markets, but this is classically shit in shit out. And so we're measuring it in a way.

46:08 Patrick Motsch: OK.

46:09 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: That is totally different. In the end, it looks like we could compare it, but we can't.

46:16 Patrick Motsch: OK.

46:17 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: So in I believe this is also happening in other areas. Honestly, for the TNPS it's it's not such a big thing. But if we do it for example on so, how we measure our sessions? And so it was a session successful or not and then the standardization and clarity on definitions is key. Otherwise, if we if we don't clean this, you can have the best AI and it will not produce good results.

46:51 Patrick Motsch: But thank you, Claire, for next topic is how can the business business unit differentiation in the market and customer engagement through digital channels? Can you say something about this?

47:06 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah. So. I think what we what we could have so so we could differentiate by. Having. So so here we are, back to to smart charging, dynamic pricing, having functionalities or leading functionalities. Allowing us to to offer the right price at the right point in time in the right location. This is one point. The second thing I'm thinking about is. Self services so. Self Services will be less important for the customer. That segment in the future as we are exiting. But looking at the EV driver, the EV driver should have access and self-service possibilities. And this could be on the one hand. Believer for efficiency automation. But also for differentiation and and customer satisfaction.

48:13 Patrick Motsch: Right. So now we come to the last point. From a leadership perspective, you addressed already in the beginning what is good and should not change and what is not so good and we should adapt. So can you raise again? Perhaps something you did not say before? In general, from leadership perspective, what we should keep and what change, you know, high level now, yeah.

48:35 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, exactly. So I think I I shared around the need for vision and identity and this kind of stuff. Yeah. So very important for me. Maybe one concrete point I didn't mention so far is Peter knows. We need to check how good the leaders in this organization are, and I'm talking about concretely as Steven and Stefan, so. I've made some some experiences that at least produce some questions. Marks in my head. So are they really the leaders that can drive this forward and also with their right engagement? And, but I'm also talking about. The non formal leaders and so forth, something the product owners. So I think they need to be very strong and they need to have a clear belief. And so someone taking care for for the CRM needs to needs to have a clear vision about where we want to go. So this is also kind of leadership, right and? Yeah, this needs to be checked.

49:44 Patrick Motsch: What? Was it something that we did not ask? And you want to raise here that you say it's important that I give at this point?

49:57 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Hmm. Yeah. So we talked about it earlier. So right now the the the DSH management team is a bit special because we have the embedded managers from IT, traditionally, not from procurement. What's a bit weird? Yeah. So and the embedded managers are very operational. So Rebecca and Dorota. These are more operational managers from it and I think we need to think about and also openly discuss with. Jetska slash Edwin and and and Tobias. If we want to create a fully blended management team. And if the seniority of those people is the right one, so. And I would. I would tend to, in integrated management team that's expanding. The team beyond Steven and Shiofang. Because it's such an integrated value chain, so procurement is a key function for us and it delivery is key. And so there shouldn't be a kind of artificial interface. And I think we could, we could integrate these units much more, although it's a different organizational unit, but it's it's fine.

51:24 Patrick Motsch: Thank you for this HR point. So we are true, I give back the word. Thank you very much. Yes, for these answers we've given back to you, Peter, because you can't have the final words.

51:37 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah. So so Fabian. And last question then and I'm I'm a bit doubt in between, either I give you the magic stick or just ask the question first. But assuming this, this, this, this project takes four to six months, which is now my. I have no clue of course, but no it. Summer 26.

51:56 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah.

51:57 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Project finished. Something has happened or not. When I when I use sufficiently happy, but with the result.

52:07 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, I think maybe starting on the leadership point, it would be great if you. Would have a standing, highly motivated leadership team, including procurement it. You you should have a clear vision and identity and also shared in the organization. So it's it's not only for the DSH, it's also about. Full so, so full buy in from the management team and the White organization as we can use the All manager meeting to to to promote this vision and to make it clear. Yeah. So it should be well understood. Yeah. And I think you should have. Clarity on on road maps so. For example, looking at the the hardware side, you should have clarity around. Where do you want to go and what are the next steps? So how do you develop it towards? So I think it's not about a revolution. So it's I think it's more evolution. But it should be well coordinated and with a very clear, clear vision. And. Maybe last aspect talking about people in this organization. I would hope for. That both in the digital domain and also the the hardware domain people feel proud of. Being being more in the spotlight, having more visibility and more appreciation from the wider organization.

53:58 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Good point. OK. Thanks.

54:02 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Question how much cost reduction?

54:06 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah, really good point. Cost reduction. So I think. You can see look at cost reductions from 2 angles. It's the the cost reduction in terms of bringing down IT costs. So. Less expensive development, less expensive maintenance. But you could also look at cost reduction. Created by efficiency from our platforms, yeah, so cost reduction. The white organization. Yeah. So and I think. Of course, we need to be cost conscious in how we run our platform and we we also have a plan how to bring it down and let's execute on that. It's important. But I would not like to squeeze the lemon too much because automation digitalization will be key to create cost efficiency in the wider organization. Yeah. So I would like to, for example, to fully automise the charge card process and reduce Ftes. In all three countries, taking cover for these manual transactions. So let's let's always look at the full business case and not only on on driving down it costs.

55:29 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Exactly that, yeah. Because also in interviews already, some opportunities are, yeah, emerging. Where if we put a bit of brain power to it then. Yeah, and and with with the numbers you're you're talking about? Quite big numbers.

55:50 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah.

55:52 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Potentially so. Yeah. OK. Thanks. Thanks Peter. Back back to you.

55:57 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): No, I think this was. This was actually quite valuable for me also to hear and and I also I also agree. Yeah, I have no more questions. Actually, I think we ask quite many.

56:08 Patrick Motsch: Thank you very much, Fabian.

56:10 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Yeah, yeah. Cool. You're welcome and thank you. Very good initiative. So looking forward to the results of that. And so it's really interesting. I also talked to may be good for you to know when you're talking to Jetske later today. I've talked to her on Monday and she's aware of what we're doing and she's highly supportive. She's also looking forward to this interview.

56:32 Patrick Motsch: Super.

56:32 .r RoomV DE Berlin Suedkreuz 6.C13 #8: Oh cool. Great. Have a good day. Talk to you soon and see you, Peter. Bye bye.