wiki/mandates/vattenfall/115 Interview Jetske - Head IT/02 transscript.txt

00:00 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So and I. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. No, this is next week meeting and I think in summer I also said already that then I have also is 2 kick off possible or something. So no, no. So today I have the time that you invited me. What is it? An hour or.

00:22 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Oh.

00:22 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Slowly, just kind of a back up slot, but Peter over to you.

00:27 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah, then I can. Then I can kick it off and then we don't need to rush should it's no relax. So before I will introduce before we do the introduction round, I would like to quickly share and and I try to summarize it a little bit in the e-mail up front already. What this is about, and why we're doing this? So if you look at the SH and you know it quite well, jetsca from from from your, your collaboration with DSH. I think. I think it's a unit with a lot of great people and a huge potential. But also challenges and opportunities, right? So I think in my new role now as director for this unit. I feel like we have a lot of questions coming after us. Like what can we do to accelerate automation in our landscape? How do we incorporate AI? What is our view on on things like plug insurance or basically E mobility market developments? What are the bigger themes we should invest in? What is our build versus buy strategy and how does that evolve? So there's quite a lot of questions that I feel coming after us, but we're lacking a clear vision or strategy on what we believe we need to do. And This is why we launched what we now call the Technology Vision Initiative, tech vision strategy. You could call it whatever you want, but we see this as an collaborative effort. To define this vision and to to find answers to these important questions, and then especially also in this consolation related to AI. So we have quite many topics that we want to find an answer to, but I think for sure we want to want to work on on a vision strategy on, on how to cooperate AI into a way of working and into our landscape. We're here with H3 company. They will introduce themselves. I know we run Ari for a long time. Also in other roles why he supported the BU and and we've decided basically to start and to kick off this initiative from from strategic level as a start so to not drown into details immediately but to to to kick it off from strategic perspective. Gather all the the first insights based on these interviews and then design the program where we will also involve experts. That's basically the idea. And it's a Co creation. So that is that is that is the intention of the of the program and we've now picked this off with the the key stakeholders involved, which is the new of course, but also to be as vigilant from procurement who is helping us on the hardware side, the S. Directors and Fannie and of course Fabio. So This is why it's at the moment starting so makes sense. Or or. How does it resonate to you? Just curious.

03:24 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, I think it's really good to to to. Rethink and re touch strategy on quite a continuous basis. Immobility feels where you can make money. Where you lose money is changing rapidly, right? So this and that makes it. That makes it hard, because of course you also don't want to change strategy every every time. But. But but it's it's a volatile field, so it really requires more attention on on strategy technical choices it choices. Than than other areas. So. So make sense. And I'm also really happy that we closely worked together on this. I think. On my level, also Edwin's level. We we, so, Ethan Mayer is my manager. That works more closely with mobility. I don't know if you guys met him already, so I think we also very much support to re-evaluate on the software side. Like where? Where do we want to make a difference and do things ourselves and where can we move to? Maybe Shash solution or Passo existing solutions to not customize it anymore, right? So so I think also this is very important to assess and reassess every time because some. Parts of what we do turn into commodities. There's good solutions available so so this this also. And of course when you go lower in my organization, the customer IT organization and you come to the team managers for them, it will be harder, right, because then it's like oh but if we outsource this to a S. Or if we if we stop developing this ourselves, that will get more. They will be see more directly people impact. And and and so that will be harder. But I think it's it's good to understand that on ATMI level, we very much support that. We need to look into it and we also know that we have sufficient work for our colleagues also in other areas outside E mob. May this be the case that it's needed to move people so we can soften the impact of it. Yeah. Then maybe. One reflection that you bring up Peter on. Who is all involved? One question to you because in CNS, there's also a strategy unit.

06:11 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Mm-hmm.

06:12 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Oh, nice.

06:12 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Which the former head of immobility heading it now, I think if he's still doing that.

06:18 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: It's not there anymore, I think, Thomas.

06:21 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Thomas is not there yet.

06:22 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): OK, OK. So is it a deliberate choice to involve some notes or? Maybe something to think about, because whatever strategy you come here with will be of course presented management team. Then you have somebody on the table thinking, hey, this is actually my work. I'm not involved, so I probably know it better. So already from the human interface, without knowing the great content that we're going to produce, right? This may be good to think about how to either update them or involve them. In this. And I think that. Your own and Patrick probably also know that. So in Vodafone. The customers and solution unit. So we have Fabian doing immobility and then we have 3 colleagues having regional units.

07:20 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Mm-hmm.

07:21 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): They make the big money so they are the big players on the table in the management team they have.

07:28 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Reiner. And yeah, Reiner. And yeah, it's in the yeah.

07:35 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And they have some other regions outside these countries. But yeah, so so. They make the big money so they have a big stake at the table, right when there's something up for decision. In about one to two years ago, there's been an agreement that if will be to see immobility segments has been moved to the region. I think it's no mistake that these people may have bigger ambitions here and there so. It's also good to think about. Where does the strategy touch these B2C areas? And I don't want to over complicate. Sorry, but it just may be good from the stakeholder field to think a little bit about. The surroundings, yeah.

08:23 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): And then last point, before I hand off to you. So I think so I mentioned this age with great people. I mean including it. So I think I think if you look into the this is and I also mentioned this in earlier interviews where you were Patrick also took part. I see this as a core asset, so not only the the E mobility knowledgeable people, but we also have many knowledgeable people in in the IT department. And so I think it's a really good starting point. So also to where we want to go, yeah. And then I hand over to you for the pick off.

08:59 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. So maybe introduction. I'm yadska Zaid. I'm a manager of customer IT and that is the units in it that yeah, does everything around customer software. So where we interact with customers now you may be a bit more familiar on the E mobility, but we also work with these three big regions for all their. Customer contacts. So you can think about websites. Apps. Billing Systems call center systems. Data analytics. Yeah. So lots of systems. Since we do and we work with the regions there for immobility and the head part of corporation in the DSH parts. The work is predominantly done from two teams that work for Etta Meyer, the team managers and these teams are based out of Poland. Historically, they were. Almost 100% internal. Staff, now we are a bit moving up the consultant's percentages also because you know there may be a fluctuation in work. Some changes are coming and we want to be able to also absorb that. So it's a bit of a mixed strategy. Then there's also work. For mainly done in. The data analytics area from my Swedish units. So so some areas differ, right? Not everything comes from Edwin, but Edwin is the main spoke towards Peter. Yeah, for the for the immobility part, yeah, yeah.

10:55 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Maybe. What? Sorry. I don't want to, but we we actually know quite a bit of the context already. We're interested in you as a person, and then we'd like to introduce ourselves and then we have some questions for you if that works.

11:08 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Ah, me as a person. What would you like to know about me as a person?

11:12 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, as a person. As a yeah. You. You, you inspired me. You were talking about the human interface, I think. What? That's a good point. Let's let's start with human interface, and I was a bit, let's say, distracted at the beginning of this interview because I was like, oh, now we need to have the one hour question. In this toe on the barrel, now we're like.

11:28 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, sorry. Totally confusing now. So I guess then as a person and human interface, I'm a big agile ambassador. So that's maybe. Explains a bit of the beginning, so I really like. To focus on the software on the product, on the delivery. And. Doing that in a big organization like Photovol. Taic right. Fotfal Swedish for waterfall.

12:06 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

12:08 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Traditionally, we have a very low risk appetite in Vita for. And of course, with an agile mindset, you just want to feel fast. Figure it out. Optimize, which is completely not accepted. So I I always. To be able to do this I I I always am aware that you need to get. You need to get the support because a lot of. Our whole governance is still based on waterfall, so. Although it's it's accepted how we work. Still there is no official governance at sillier, but. You have governance around how do you. When are you allowed to invest money? Right, you need to make investment decisions. This is still fully based on WATERFOW methodology.

13:12 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah.

13:14 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So currently I'm also trying to work with a group to make a document to change this governance, but this is so deep in in the DNA of our company that for a big part we're illegal.

13:26 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

13:27 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And it's important that people understand the goal of why you do things, not necessarily. Start stopping you because you may here and there not follow a certain. Procedure or. Yet that doesn't fit to how we work. I don't know if that was more about me in person, but that is why I'm also trying. Yeah. Why? Maybe very aware of the circumstance because it will determine so much if you will succeed or not.

14:02 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Hmm.

14:03 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): With a great plan, right being right. Didn't get anybody anywhere.

14:08 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: That thank you and and and where are you based?

14:13 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): I I'm based in Amsterdam, but I have moved last year to Cheshire so.

14:20 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Oh, nice.

14:22 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): I yeah, yeah.

14:23 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: On the island.

14:24 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So I work predominantly from Tehsil. Yeah, but of course I travel also a lot to the different countries. And I'm also in the msseine office, yeah.

14:32 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Great. Thanks. Yeah. Wonderful. Shall we chip in, Patrick? Is that all right? So if that works, yes good. Happy to tell a bit about us and. So I'll start. Yeah. So yaoon, I'm based out of the afterhook, which is either that way or that way depending on where you are. But from Tesco, it's South.

14:52 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:54 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Half an hour away from the German border I live here with my wife. We have two daughters, four and and 10, and I have a son from a previous marriage 17 so. My body flees out of her body, Florida in the freezer. Freezer finished school with other drunk sleeping or working now, so doing as expected I'll say. Yeah, I back in the days 47. Now I actually studied computer science and did a master's thesis on artificial intelligence, which of course I didn't know that would end up in this place where we are today. But when I had a workshop somewhere last year, I I was kind of pissed awake. By this old friend, which had said goodbye because of I was quite actually afraid of the potential of AI when I had studied it. So went on to become management consultant. Then, since 15 years now I'm executive coach, facilitator, boardroom advisor. In that context, met Peter already. I think 2018 something like that started working with the BUMT out of Aberkin back then. Which is now by now part of McKinsey. And yeah, I never left to be you ever since. I'm sure that was not Peter's plan, but he's still stuck with me. And I've been supporting the BUMT and team development supporting individual leaders one-on-one with the executive coaching and supporting all of the teams reporting into the BU Mt over the last years, including, yeah, what used to be PMPM is now DSH two years ago. So now the the operation quite well and but yeah. In being pissed away, you can't go back to sleep. So I just decided to start my own company together with with some some great friends and experts like like Patrick and and Elfie and other people now working under this brand to. Yeah, ultimately I'm still doing what I did, which is to support individuals and teams, but I'm also. Really burning for how to help companies to become. Capable to deal with. If what we call the state of perpetual transformation because AI is creating so much ambiguity with regards to how the future looks tomorrow, it's still OK. But then one 2-3 years from now, it really becomes rather ambiguous. And so rather than having the solution, I don't know. But we we are bringing a methodology to companies that will help them to. Yeah, to deal with these ambiguities. And keep on iterating and actually embrace the constant iteration of core business processes and everything that's linked to that as just a way of running the business. So in very much in line with your agile spirit very much in line with your idea that the waterfall was a. Romantic place in history. At some point it will never come back. Our never, but at least not for the coming decades. We, we we are convinced. So we better organize for it. To reap the benefits and the benefits for us very much include a healthy human AI or human machine symbiosis rather than just a hollowing out of or supercharging a broken capitalist system that will just lead to lots of profits and super and even more unhappy people. Right. So.

18:22 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): The easel.

18:24 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, I mean, but yeah, so it really at. A point in time where we can choose, let's say, many things. And so we are here to. To choose for a, for a, for a world that we wish for our grandchildren. So that's also a bit about H3 now. To to Patrick. Patrick is, I think, Patrick, you can tell yourself, but I am a big fan of Patrick and Peter by now as well. Patrick, you don't need to tell that part because that's just truth. But maybe you can tell a bit about Patrick background, yeah.

18:56 Patrick Motsch: Thank you for this. I just shared a value study just told about the democratization of knowledge and demographicization of decisions. I live in Switzerland. I was born in Geneva, in the French part. Then I moved to Zurich. Now in the German part, I live in my family. Here I have three children. Wonderful wife and wonderful children normally, and I started 20. I'm not graduate 29 or 30 years ago I started civil engineer. I was working in the in the infrastructure domain. In the construction domain specifically, I was doing real estate projects. I still do it on my side in private. I like it. But then I changed to the digital side because more and more we had this technology projects going with it in our company, digital transformations. And one of the nice combinations I could do was data centers first to study how they work, then to design and then to build. Teams. And then I had to change in Zurich with the Dodge Company at the time to build 22 datacenters in Zurich North. The one. The two centres now that are used for the hyper scalers that come from USA that don't trust anymore data from all to Europe and my role there was I could build the design from data center with the team, build the internal team to raise up because they had. To go from 2:00 to 200, then finally to operate all this thing and I could hand it over after it was finished, which was very nice for me. And this is also my role. I'm an agile person. I come to solve a problem and when it's done I go and when it was good, perhaps I come again, but not for the same problem. So finally it was this. This AI hype that you all survived, I hope. And now more and more, it's not only teach the transformation that I support and that I support teams and organization. It's not just AI journey for me. This AI is already over. We are now in the age of AI integration. Also here and this is where I come now from infrastructure, our digital to people in my age. Now I I like to work more and more with people. When I was young, I like the console and the computers and the things. This is over, I realized. Also, it's it's now people business to manage these things, especially AI. When it was ask also very tough the biggest impact I think everywhere at least in IT. So it's now really, really a disruptive topic that we have here. That can be very wonderful. Varsity manager. It could so also speak too much. Now this is my role.

21:24 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks. Yeah. Wonderful. We've worked to. There's one other team member. That's our AI note taker. It's a G. DBR compliant to running on European servers, which which I'm explicitly paying extra for. Also, for my own Peace of Mind. So if it's OK with you, we record it. If not, we shut it off. Yeah, we record it.

21:50 Patrick Motsch: OK.

21:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Thanks. And and this interview is confidential between the four of us. Peter Pazhik and I will use the extracts to design the kickoff. Which is taking place on the what is 15th, 16th out of my head, top five in two weeks from now. Cool. All right. So now we have some questions for you already. You gave a lot of input, so let's see. There's still a few left, but please don't repeat yourself what you already told us first. But I think first question is how well do you know immobility and the and the business unit's primary strategic goals?

22:34 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. How well is good question. It's it's more on a on a higher level that I'm involved and I am happy to have regular alignments with Fabian also. So he's trying to educate me there. So for example, currently about exiting the customer interest part. So. I would say I do my best to to understand it, but I'm certainly not defining dish. Yeah. So the business strategy and. Yeah.

23:11 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yep. Thanks, Sarah. And of course, Edwin is much closer to you than or to immobility than you, I imagine. Yeah, yeah. I haven't met Edwin, by the way. But I did work a lot with John de Young, who is Peter's predecessor, of course. And I've also been to katowitz, so working with Officer, Rebecca and with.

23:33 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Good. Yeah, I think it is really good that you also interview Edwin. I don't know if you have have that plans. And of course, Edwin and we, we more concentrate on on the software part. Then on the business strategy, but but the nice thing is that there are strategic conferences where we also together are in where the IT people are also involved. So yeah, I think that that's a really nice cooperation we do together.

24:10 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, from from your. From what you can see and and hear. Where do you feel the if if, if at all the collaboration between. Let's say E mobility and and and Vodafone. It can be elevated to to the to the next level.

24:31 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): I think we really have a strong cooperation and also try to support us where we can. Umm. Yeah. So very good question. I I. I don't feel we lack a part, I think. I think one of the difficult things, but this is not about cooperation, is where do you? Put your time in, right? And I think this also is a bit linked to strategy and considering a lot of different things.

25:14 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Mm-hmm.

25:15 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And and when we when we talk about AI. There's there's many areas where we could start using AI right? So. Forks shoppers.

25:34 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Can you unpack? Yeah, sorry.

25:36 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So so. For chompol, in having more of these agnostic. Flows these agents that. Correct things automatically, right? So so. When you have a charging station. Many things can go wrong that they that they fail and and and a lot of things you could automatically bring them back and make more use of agents and self learning agents to also predict this and to prevent this. So a lot is possible, but I also think. That we we live a bit in an AI hype.

26:19 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, agreed.

26:22 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Of what is AI is also about automation.

26:28 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, exactly.

26:31 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And yeah, and and I think automation for immobility. In in in the operation and also in the services. Essential and I think there we we made the first prerequis you know the word prerequisites in. Integrating systems. And moving to into in into had a shame. Billing system. Same customer systems. And now we have done this much more becomes possible, right? Because as long as you have different islands and different. And also because the margins in immobility are not that big, the need for automation is high, right? So there's not much.

27:21 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

27:23 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Uh. Of course, often you want to keep certain parts of your service personal, as there may be sales opportunities or bidding case of immobility. Is very little right. It's very, very little and I think a lot of the changes that has been ongoing open up now that we can much more focus on the automation. But I think that the growing pains in. In in. Have been. That. We. I think that what Fabian does really well now is give much more focus to where we should work. So two years ago it was basically we wanted to go to the moon. And everything should be done and I think that's also the trap when defining strategy, specifically within because. We are rich. All good ideas need to be done. Well, that's the best way to fail, right? So. So just pick something and start doing it. And I think Fabian is doing that really well.

28:36 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, agreed.

28:38 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): To concentrate on something, yeah.

28:39 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah.

28:40 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And that's, I guess that's the same with AI. We are working on a lot of interesting projects in other regions with. With sales on AI. And so, so there's lots of experience of things that we can do also in the service area. That we could also. See if we can use them for immobility.

29:08 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Fantastic.

29:08 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): But all of them will be a serious undertaking, will require your resources and and we need to think where is the focus.

29:16 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of feel moved to also to ask Peter, how does this land with you and is there anything that is like emerging in you that you want to share at this moment? I mean don't feel obliged. Not part of the script, but we're going a bit off paced.

29:35 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): No, I can also work with that script. No, no, no. I like it so.

29:40 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: There's definitely a script.

29:40 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah, that there is scripts but so no, I I I very much very much resonate and I like it. So I think, yeah, but let's continue with the questions and we will come there, yeah.

29:50 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Very good, yeah. Yeah, so this, this, this initiative aims to develop and implement and maintain the tech vision for the BUE mobility, right. So as Peter already framed in the beginning, how, how, how would you define a tech vision as such, what what is part of that?

30:14 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. So I think here it's it's arranging really from hardware charging components. Yeah, a lot of infrastructure components are there, right? So we have Patrick as builds data centres, I hear which may come in handy there, right, because it's it's ranging from that to we also know that. Just the simple fact of certain telephonies having certain telephony suppliers determines your service right? So there's so much in the partners and the hardware we have. Or we use through suppliers that determines the quality of our service. So I see it really ranging from all their to the software platform and and and the components. We deliver and work on.

31:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. Thanks.

31:19 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And it's it's of course, in immobility. It's it's such a quick developing. Developing that if you already look into the hardware stations we have all these different versions. I mean, Patrick and me, when we when we were still. Working with Patrick, I think he also were coding. You said so I started working on the on the black green terminals, right? I I used to be a coder RPG400 on an H400. This is like so.

31:53 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Nice.

31:55 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): It took almost a lifetime now to get to these. Nice. Laptops, right? But if you look into the. Charging stations for immobility. They've gone through this. They go to continuous evolution. There's new models out every year, there's new protocols. How they function every year there's new. So when you look into. Our service we have to work with all these older, newer models. All these different protocols, all these. So. So deciding about a strategy should should also go about what? What is the zoo? What is the form we have on on assets? Yeah. Do you really want to maintain them all? Maybe it is also easy, right? Because handling these different protocols, how you communicate with the station that becomes more and more a commodity and we used to really call this ourselves. So so yeah. So I think there in the strategy we need to make some smart choices.

33:03 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks. So we of course we're trying to or well also kind of visualize it in a in a way that's that helps us to to speak into it and and I'll show now kind of a prototype which is intended to be Co created also as part of this TRA. Which is why we show it. And I also get your first. Your first idea, and we'll bring it into the kickoff as well. To to kind of. At a very high level. That's 'cause. It's very high level. I have a a framework which or we call the steering wheel. To cover which which kind of helps us to, to check if we cover all angles and so leadership at the heart to drive it. And it is this this digital transformation. AI and what have you. Everything that needs to be in place, of course. Then a strategy, a culture enabling that strategy and then execution. Strategy through the operating model, which also falls apart into. 4 segments. In this, in the upper part of the model has been inspired by by an IMD model which Patrick has been working with a lot with, with organizations and all of this of course happens within the the bath, I would say of data and data, quality data, etc. And. And at this moment also artificial intelligence. So when you look at this, is there anything critical like missing at this meta level? If you if you think about tech vision?

34:51 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Well. Oh yeah, I do see the customers.

34:56 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, that's what Tobias also said. That should be more prominent. Yeah, there should be more prominence. Yeah. So we'll take that as feedback, yeah. Anything else?

35:17 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Well, yeah. So of course you there's. In the operating model, I think but, but I don't know that. Maybe also a question to Peter, I think. There are. Other units, did you also cooperate closely with right procurement?

35:42 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Procurement for sure.

35:43 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So where would you see them? In here, would it be partners or or so I think. When I understood far beyond, there's also a bit of thinking. How can we work together with IT and with procurement that may not necessarily be a meta model. Strategy, but I'm trying to think about what Fabian had in mind.

36:11 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): It's it's a close collaboration, especially with IT and procurement.

36:16 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. And I don't think engagement really. I don't know. But yeah so but or or its organization I don't know. Yeah.

36:27 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I would say, yeah. In my logic that would be part of operations and organization.

36:31 Patrick Motsch: It's a good point to address it, because it's a key point. It has to find place somewhere.

36:35 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah.

36:37 Patrick Motsch: Here I I I understand this point.

36:38 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. And I guess the model can capture always everything. So you guys will will work it out, yeah.

36:44 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Granted, yeah. Exactly. Thanks. Then I would say. Let me think.

36:53 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. And if she showed again? So I think. The other model, which is often used of course, is people, process technology. Process well, I'm happy if it's not in here because I think the goal is more important, but. Or it would be, yeah. In operations, I see its process and technology. Yeah. So I guess maybe technology should fit somewhere.

37:30 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, we need technology. Let me see if OK.

37:35 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Well, you have a data, an AI circle around it, but. Yeah.

37:40 Patrick Motsch: No, I'm very happy for your points because it depends what is the focus topics that you need in an organization that is challenging is very important that we have to write words here where we need to put our focus and our energies. And in a strategy and the. Vision. Good point.

37:57 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. And the other thing, of course, that's a lot on our minds. I think also with Peter. Is the needed capabilities right in people so they're so high development in technologies in? You. Structure incentives. That really. Getting the people with the right knowledge of these technologies of the hardware of is, is is often also an important part. Yeah.

38:31 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yep. Granted, yeah. Yeah. And they're right now. We can be happy to have some very great expertise in House. But you wanna keep that and expand that and also adapt to changing. Technical technological realities, right? So yeah. Yeah. That's it. I think I hand over to you. But if that works for you.

39:03 Patrick Motsch: Thank you. My questions be already sent to by e-mail. Before that you had a fair chance also to prepare because I also was.

39:11 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Uh Oh yeah, I had a fair chance to prepare. I agree.

39:14 Patrick Motsch: Just avoiding those questions and not something else you know, I could also send questions if you ask something else not to. No, it's it's.

39:23 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I almost do not dare to admit it. I did not read it.

39:25 Patrick Motsch: That's OK. It's OK.

39:28 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): I did not see it, but yeah, yeah, I I I'm a happy person that gets a lot of mail.

39:33 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Oh, look at you.

39:33 Patrick Motsch: Yes Sir. So.

39:33 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, sorry, but please ask the questions.

39:36 Patrick Motsch: No, no, not at all. A problem, everything OK? It's just these three parts. The first strategic reason and this digital transformation that we are about to do as we prepare to discuss about developing and implementing this tech vision that we want to do could reflect on how you see it your part enabling the organization to create. Create the new customer value. How can you support us? Help us better see your role.

40:05 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. So I think there's a lot of experts. We have not only knowing the current system, but also. From architectural point, that's that can help. Bringing ideas to form this vision. So I think it it will be really good to to yeah have have some of these involved. Add on a bit of a higher level. Edwin has a very good. Yeah, can bring very good input also into this I think.

40:41 Patrick Motsch: Right.

40:41 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah.

40:42 Patrick Motsch: And when you look for role can teach you the transformation. Play especially also question because I don't know to have an IT strategy and the digital strategy is there something also we can use, adapt, contribute.

40:58 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, derish and I think I probably also can find. Materials on this? So for example, there is AI strategy also, so that may be good to have. I will.

41:12 Patrick Motsch: Yep.

41:14 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Find the link and send it to you. So AI is if, if we look into the current strategy of it, there are several things that have a lot of focus. One of it is is AI and to boost also the use of AI in getting more customer value so. So I think that's a clear part. We also have a lot of focus on automation. And. So you you can. Think about this in in for example our. Current. Software development and operations. We have cicd pipelines. That verify automatically a lot of things and with that. Try to secure that you have a stable environment that it's also compliant, that it's secure. So a lot of these things are are automized. So focus on automating this specifically. Also with the deliveries we do here as we can release new software multiple times a day. These things are automatically done. So. So that's that's extremely important. Security is also a focus point, of course.

42:37 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Mm-hmm.

42:37 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): We know all things happening in the world and this is not making it easier. So also a lot of attention we have. On that, yeah.

42:50 Patrick Motsch: Very good source of validation testing automated.

42:56 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. So a lot of the the tests are in the CICD pipeline.

43:02 Patrick Motsch: Mm-hmm.

43:04 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, and. And we have also test automation specialists that work on this we have. Yeah, and and and also one specific team that is focusing on this, the SRE team. Peter, you you must know this. This team, right? So it's it's one team that works on. A lot of these. Security checks. And make sure that they get into these pipelines so that whenever we release software that this is automatically applied and if it's not good enough, then the release is just not done. Yeah.

43:52 Patrick Motsch: He also developed with AI in this this topic and when you produce applications products you develop using AI.

44:01 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So. AI is used by developers, but it's still in more in individual and in pork states. But there is no way no company could say that they're not using AI because you've also been coding, right, Patrick or not.

44:20 Patrick Motsch: Yes, that's also why. Yes, because of this of this compliance topic that they address, they're a little bit tight if you allow.

44:26 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: It was a long time ago, but.

44:28 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): How about you, Peter?

44:30 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I wasn't too good. That's why I became a management consulting instead of it.

44:33 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, OK. But, but let's say this way, whoever it manager currently says that his code is absolutely made without AI is just living under a stone.

44:45 Patrick Motsch: Is too expensive.

44:47 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Because if you are, if no, but even if it's too expensive, if you are a software engineer. You have tried this out privately. You have done this and you will use it in your work. Maybe not officially, maybe not. So our job is in the Cicd pipelines as a company to secure that. If there is anything coming through that with AI which cannot be trusted, that it bounces back but to just. So so I think you cannot prevent people from using AI. I mean, if you now type in, you're searching Google. It's also using AI. If you want or if you don't want and software engineers. They are smart people. They are not just going to do a lot of boring work if this can just be done really easily and imported in the code, right? So how could somebody figure out that you not did it and you had it in AI? And why would you even want to stop it? Because I think it's really important to prepare your software engineers for the future. So we encourage them to use AI. We also train them on being aware. Of the. Risk of AI right? So. And I think AI is already in many more places than we think or we. Officially acknowledge. So of course I could say no, we're not using AI, but yes, they are using AI. We also have folks, for example around cursor. And we know that people individually also use tools like lovable and yeah.

46:42 Patrick Motsch: But this for me this answer is is perfect, not because of the answer because of the direction of answer I understand for me it was just important to understand how IT department how your part thinks about this technology and how you use it from it's crucial for me. It will also be interesting, you know, to find out the other parties in the company how they think about and how they are aware on what you just said, because I could imagine you are touching very, very near. This technology, others are a little bit far. Perhaps that's why I was. I was jumping so much down now. Thank you, Bates.

47:16 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And in the mobile web technology area, so front end, back end and full stack development. We now also explicitly in the sourcing strategy for my full unit, have to keep more externals because. I mean, Gardner is still saying that this will not endanger. The software work. But I see that this is so much, so much work can be automated, the work will become more complex, but so much this will have an impact and I expect the impact to be the quickest in these areas. So there we also keep a higher amount of externals. I told you earlier. This also has to do with fluctuations in mobility, but it also has to do that we foresee we can do more. Or with AI in the future and we will need less software engineers.

48:08 Patrick Motsch: Thank you. Great. So with Trump, at this point to the next topic, which is collaboration and enablement, which is connected now, what you just said considering the collaboration between IT and business units and the county organisations, also what do you see as the key? Cannot say key technological. Capabilities in partnership models needed to enable our business transformation. That we are about to define with our technology.

48:40 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. So yeah, yeah. So I I think that what works really well with immobility is that we collaborate cross team. Yeah. So, so we have the software engineers from my department. We have the product owners from Peter and other other specialists. And and they closely collaborate in the agile teams. I also see big value in having very close cooperation. The management level. So, for example, Rebecca and Dorota are also part of management teams of business. Why would you always have finance and an hour person in your management team, but you don't have it? I don't get it. So I think on all levels it's important that I understand Fabian. Edwin understands Peter, that we that we on all these levels. Also, it's really important that we work together and that we can strengthen what we try to achieve across the organization, right for foot of all, I think that that's that's a bit of a key model. If you officially read our governance, I come back to the waterfall things. Officially, we work together in a demand supply. Working relationship. And I think that's wrong. I think it should be more of a partnership and and I think we have that in in immobility. So. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

50:19 Patrick Motsch: Perfectly. When we go to the future, we look a little bit forward. Which emerging technologies or IT initiatives or capability caps? Should we prioritize to maintain competitive advantage in the market? What do you think?

50:37 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So if I really think about. The current landscape, I think. The CRM system so SAP brim. Also, Microsoft Dynamics. So there we we need to secure. Competences and and and it's it's it's not that easy so specifically. Microsoft Dynamics is, is is difficult. But we're also training internal people here, so we we have sourcing strategies there. But so, so from technology wise, that's the the the current landscape. I also see that we we also focus on moving more to full stack developers over only front or back end. So so that's something. A change we also do. Yeah. And obviously. The AI is not a technology, but using AI and becoming familiar with it needs to have a high focus. Yeah.

51:57 Patrick Motsch: About caps, do you see? There are some leading role from here. From IT department I would say also for training education and these things for various cities. Just to say, I suspect that's coming everywhere for everybody with all these risks, with the compliance, topics with data topics.

52:15 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, I think there are a lot of learnings available. Offered sense? Really, which can be taken, but I think to really apply it in the immobility area, you need somehow to get focus and some people that are able to work with it. And maybe it could also be good to look at. Alder exhaust in the organization. So for example. For CNS and L, there is now a team working on this, but you know that Peter also or not.

52:51 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Who's that?

52:51 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So. So. So Cindy, in Cindy's unit, they have formed one new agile team. Focusing on AI and concrete AI implementations. So, and I think that this can help. Even though you grow cross-platform and you would involve people there. I think that can help that you have a group of people that focus that look at what are the ideas, what's the most valuable idea. Let's see that we do something with it. To bring some focus.

53:34 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Interesting.

53:37 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Because just training people and then not doing anything with it.

53:42 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah. So you would say create a dedicated team, so not not embedded in all teams specifically.

53:48 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): That's well, that's just as an example. That's what they did with in Cindy's units, and I think it may be right. Maybe, maybe nice to just look and talk to them and say, hey, how is this working right? Because just to ask, all teams that have a big mission of you need to do a lot of list of things to also do AI and you sent them to a course. Also good, right? Maybe that also works well, but it could be nice to just see. Hey, how does that work? Would that be an approach that is also beneficial for immobility? It's it's something new, right? How do you change habits of people?

54:31 Patrick Motsch: Mm-hmm.

54:33 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah.

54:33 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, interesting. And so Peter would be interesting to learn in indeed, if this is then a team that has been then freed up and put into one team, or if they're still embedded in their own departments. I have many questions about this, but great, great learning.

54:49 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Who is leading the team?

54:49 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, let me let me let me ask and I will share with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think it's, it's nice to talk to them and to hear out what they what they feel, if it's going well. Yeah. Yeah.

55:01 Patrick Motsch: Absolute. Thank you. That was the question from outside.

55:05 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, that's it. We're all learning, so as much we can learn from each other and inspire each other. We we know more and we go faster, all of us.

55:14 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Maybe I can ask a last question, which basically if I look at our system landscape. My my, my view is that the basics are are very well developed, right? So sub bran if you look at it can handle millions of charging sessions automatically. Perfect, thanks. CRM can manage all our customers and we're adding adding modules to it. I think the portal nicely developed a lot of features getting better. Feel better? So I think a platform from a capability perspective is not so bad. I would say some people think, but I think it's quite good actually. But the the big buzz is that I find so user-friendliness and the level of process automations, self-service, those things are very much behind. This is no blaming, right? I know we share the road map, but it's like a few. Those are very much behind and I'm thinking like. How can it be right? We have quite many people. We know what we need, but for some reason. It's not happening so far, has not really happened. So This is why customers are customers, employees complaining. It's all manual work. A lot of errors. Do you have a few there on on root cause and and what we should do to accelerate this in the right direction?

56:34 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Well, so we we come from split systems. So. There's the Netherlands work different and Germany worked different. In Sweden, you know more than me about that, right? So we all had our own systems. We all had our own way of working. What we fixed now is that there is an IT backbone. So we now go through the same system.

57:00 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah.

57:00 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): But obviously we still have our own processes. We still have and we try to get that more together, but everybody. Especial. Right. So you, you also wish everybody to be special, right? But in this case. Further simplification of process and automation still needs to happen and I think this can also not happen before you are in one system. And and it's extremely painful. It takes a long time. It's a big change process. But I think you have to do it also because it's financially. The. Automating the surface, we need to have an extreme case that that you as a customer can talk to somebody, right? Because you you you lose so much money by having this personal contact. You don't want to do this. So so it is something that we can now put focus on and and it's I think it's the same Peter. I mean you you've also faced the one hour program in front of all, right.

58:09 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Yeah, for sure.

58:10 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, we're all. We're all special. We know, right? We don't want to lose it and and the more opportunity and money have that you don't lose it, don't want to lose it. You just get different solutions. You get complicated processes, you need people. Yeah. So so it's really steering to to the standards. And automating. And I think one of the difficult thing is the markets were in is AB2B markets, you get customers. For, you know, seducing them with all but for you, your full fall. So we will do something special. So so it's it's a difficult balance, right? So I cannot determine that you shouldn't do special things for fo FO but, but it would surely. I think all of us understand that if we don't do special things for customers that it would be a lot cheaper and we could automate more.

59:10 Patrick Motsch: Sure.

59:12 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And and right now we are able to do it before we were in different systems. So there it wasn't possible. There was no need and everybody was special. Yeah, still now. Everybody's still special, but now we can do it now.

59:25 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: You're still special and we have a standardized business process and automated.

59:31 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nobody wants to be the average. We're all just a bit better than the average, aren't we? Yeah.

59:37 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: It's just that we are all special, so it's standards then.

59:40 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yes, yeah, yeah.

59:41 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Let's tailor it. No, it's.

59:44 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Exactly. Maybe. Maybe what? It's we're on time, but Peter, a quick question, if we should also consider interviewing Edwin before the kickoff. It feels like it's a good thing.

59:53 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Technology. The developments around what would be worth to focusing on. So I I think that that would be really good. Yeah.

01:00:10 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, yeah. And also I think in, in transparency, etc. We're also looking at OK then because because part of this also helping DSH to to get their their signature right, Peter as as we formulated and then what's the what's the, what's the right team configuration for the management team to. To optimally, yeah, accelerate this and and implement this, this, this tech vision. This question on our mind, so no no solutions but would love to to also. Yeah, to have you on board of that. Conversation somehow with Peter. But this is Peter, Jessica, and question to Peter that that is the last thing on my mind, yeah.

01:00:55 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): So so you you wonder who's the best contact? Me or Edwin? Yeah. I. I don't know. Why don't you interview him? And if Edwin is more so Edwin is on the technology side for E mobility he. He has much more knowledge of what's in the market, what's possible.

01:01:15 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah. No, it's. I didn't mean that. I meant in the daily operational management team that reports to Peter. Now it's Rebecca. Maybe it should be Edwin instead. It depends a bit on the angle and on what. What the Mt is trying to achieve so so that's what Fabian and Peter and.

01:01:35 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Good question and the kick off to Adrian, I would say.

01:01:36 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Yeah, we're not letting you go for the kickoff yet.

01:01:39 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): He can probably explain what's the good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

01:01:41 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: I. I don't. I don't think we're letting you off the hook yet. For the kickoff, but I'll let Peter decide that.

01:01:47 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): No, no, I I, but I only had the 1st 30 minutes, right? Because that's the one in two weeks or something, or and there was another one possible as well, I believe. But I don't know.

01:01:57 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Well, OK. So let's check that we have, let's say the primary slot. It's on September 16th from 11:50.

01:02:07 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): And then there's one on the 18th, 18th I can make, yeah.

01:02:13 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: And and then there's a, yeah. And then there's a backup slot. So if you cannot make this, you're you're saying you cannot make the 16th slot.

01:02:20 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): No, only the 1st 30 minutes that that was the 30 minute thing. Yeah.

01:02:25 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Clear. OK, good. Well, then we will. Yeah, we'll think about how to cover that maybe.

01:02:31 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Let me know I I I can also be there to 30 minutes and then be the other one.

01:02:35 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK.

01:02:35 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): But just let me know what you prefer.

01:02:37 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK.

01:02:37 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Thanks a lot Jessica for your time.

01:02:39 Zuidema Jetske (YIA): Yeah, you too. And looking forward to it.

01:02:43 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks Peter. Patrick, maybe.

01:02:45 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Go to win.

01:02:45 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Hang on.

01:02:45 Patrick Motsch: Yes, it's good.

01:02:48 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Thanks.

01:02:49 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Bye bye.

01:02:49 Patrick Motsch: Yes, thank you very much. See you.

01:02:52 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Let me see if I can pick out my AI note taker where I see.

01:02:57 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Although I said get otherwise I can also do it.

01:03:00 Patrick Motsch: But wait, wait before you shoot him down, huh? Some note takers have to rule when you shoot him. He came out of the meeting. He deletes the notes.

01:03:07 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Oh, OK. Let me see if I can.

01:03:09 Ommeren Pieter van (SB): Let's not do that.

01:03:10 Patrick Motsch: Be careful. Yes, because for compliance, they say, then I'm not accepting in the meeting, so I delete data.

01:03:16 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Interesting. OK.

01:03:16 Patrick Motsch: Be careful. So just keep him here.

01:03:20 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: OK.

01:03:22 Patrick Motsch: Or we change the meeting. Or we just take data. Dave, we have not yet. Don't kick him out. I just say this.

01:03:37 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Don't know how to do it. OK.

01:03:43 Patrick Motsch: Ah, we can do following. We go out of the meeting, come back, then he stops.

01:03:47 Jeroen Haverkorn van Rijsewijk: Well, I can, I can. I can give you. I can set up a a brief conference call, but it's really just two minutes. Yeah. Is that OK, Peter, to a line. OK, bye.